Design or Non-Design, finally we know, Darwin's Doubt

by QC 371 Replies latest jw friends

  • Django_Unchained
    Django_Unchained

    wow...

    so somehow the plants were created on the third day before the day night cycle on the fourth day? that's according to you:

    1) Phrase "evening and morning" in Genesis 1:5 refers to light (photons) separating out of the cosmic plasma "Dark Ages" cannot refer to normal solar days because visible sun and moon, day or night clocks, don't' become visible in the sky until the fourth day. Gen 1:14-15

    obviously that can't possibly work.

    the genesis account doesn't simply mention a day/night cycle but says that he MADE the 'great lights to govern the day and night' in the fourth day. the day after the third day in which the seed bearing plants were created...

    that whole fourth day is just convoluted. god makes the sun and the moon and the stars in the fourth day and just throws them up in the sky. whole lot wrong with that.

    verse 15:

    and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so.

    earth was created/conceived before the 'lights'

    on a sidenote, the mental gymnastics with the whole "day" reference meaning x,y, and z reminds me very much of the whole "generations" thing meaning from 1914 to god knows when

  • Captain Obvious
    Captain Obvious

    I love how this thread is still alive.. I don't think a single doubting creationist could get an ounce of assurance of their belief from the crap QC and his buddies say. Copied and pasted pages and videos of even bigger clowns than himself.. Sad. Most JWs do disbelieve evolution, but only because they have been lied to about it. This in itself will cause many to question.. It certainly did for me. If anything, QC's thread has been a great forum for presenting facts to refute creationist pseudoscience. Anyone can see it. So thanks, QC, keep it up. You help make more atheists every day.

  • QC
    QC

    Light

    Update:

    Genesis 1:3-5 is referring to “light” visibility (telescope view) arriving in the Earth’s region for the first time.

    Genesis 1:16-19 is referring to “great lights” fully functional as clocks calibrated to measure “day and night…signs [e.g. eclipse, equinox]…seasons… days and years” etc.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyc3bDFk84w

    Gn 1:3 “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. AV 4 And seeing is the Elohim the light, that it is good.

    And separating is the Elohim between the light and the darkness.” CLV

    “Let there be light” is not creation of luminaries, they’re already created when “God created heaven and earth.” “Let there be light” refers to Earth’s sky (firmament) capacity for “light” translucency is online—Earth’s “Dark Ages” is interrupted; a “light-dark” (day-night) rotation is discernible for the first time from Earth’s surface.

    This “light” transparency is the same transparency permeating the cosmos allowing WMAP and COBE probes see back in time as far as the CMBR event, when this cosmic opaqueness (“Dark Ages”) became transparent.

    Initial opaqueness is because very hot matter was crammed together into a smaller universe. Cosmos expansion (still occurring today) allows it to loosen up and cool. This also allows the quark-gluon plasma to form into protons. Most of the photons at this time in the universe are interacting with electrons and protons in the photon–baryon fluid, and the universe is still opaque or "foggy." There is light but not light we could observe through telescopes.

    The baryonic matter in the universe consisted of ionized plasma (with positively charged hydrogen and helium nuclei, and negatively charged electrons) which became neutral when it gained free electrons during "recombination." This “recombination” releases decoupled photons to freely roam infusing the universe with transparency throughout its various regions. Plausibly, “Let there be light: and there was light,” is when Earth’s region arrives at this state of FREE-ROAMING photon transparency (telescope viewing).

    Photons roaming the universe freely is how we are able to see the residual cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR)—the “afterglow" pattern of the Big Bang freely propagating through space. Scientists consider this to be one of the strongest pieces of observational evidence for the Big Bang theory.

    Can't conflate Hebrew terms "created" and "made."

    Create” Hebrew root bara means novel ( absolute) : a total new thing

    In the beginning was “created bara heaven and earth.”

    Ro 4:17 “God...who creates new things out of nothing. NLT …. Hb 11:3 the visible has its origin in the invisible.” NET

    . “Made” Hebrew root `asah means, to do or make (in the broadest sense); to fashion, to prepare, to engage; aboutness, etc

    Gn 1:16-19 “ God made `asah two great lights…fourth day” AV

    This 3300 year track record is compelling when it comes to credibility:

    1) It's FIRST to get the Big Bang ORIGIN of the universe right

    2) It's FIRST to get the EXPANSION of the universe right

    3) It's FIRST to get "let there be LIGHT" in the universe right

    4) It's FIRST to get the ORDER of creation right

    This is the only one you can argue. But Neo-Darwinism and abiogenesis speculations are frauds, verifiable by the fossil record as well the latest DNA findings. It's pointless to argue fantasy.

    Fossil record does point to other findings consistent with Genesis:

    We know Mammoths preserved in the Arctic Siberia permafrost have tropical vegetation in their stomachs. Their death (ingesting tropical flora) tells us the climate was tropical and their preservation has a quick frozen catastrophic cause.

    It’s plausible that the 3 rd day condition of Earth is a tropical-subtropical flora conservatory (with no polar climate extremes) consistent with a stratospheric water canopy (protective screen), above the sky (firmament), giving the Earth a uniform greenhouse temperature; a flora incubator, as it were, as the Sun light is diffuse (enough for photosynthesis).

  • cofty
    cofty

    Every page of the bible insults the intelligence of any 21st century person.

    Pretending it isn't totally anti-scientific is deeply dishonest.

    Why won't you engage in actual dialogue QC? All we get from you is copy-paste, ridiculous videos and personal insults.

    Is that all you have to offer?

  • QC
    QC

    Hi cofty, science is the reason I'm NOT an atheist. Its mathematics and design beauty are powerful. Can't be ignored.

    And, it makes good sense.

    Thanks for sharing.

  • Captain Obvious
    Captain Obvious

    QC, I agree with you. The mathematics of the universe are beautiful. What is especially beautiful to me is how it all happens without god. We now understand how it likely came to be. We also understand how the automatic processes brought the universe to where it is. Nowhere has there ever been a need for a creator. Not "in the beginning," not now.

    How do you reconcile god's absenteeism? And don't give me that "gods ways are mysterious, universal sovereignty" baloney. Why will god take a break from giving starving kids AIDS in third world countries to help Christians in meaningless areas of their lives, but won't take a second to actually do any good? Is he not able?

    When a natural disaster happens, we legally call it an 'act of god.' Why does god get the blame for insurance purposes but not for every other tragedy? Did he do any of it? Does he do ANY good at all? Why is he such an asshole?

    You say you cannot be an atheist because you see purpose in creation.. Ok fine be that way. But answer this: given my points above, does he deserve to be revered and worshipped? If he is real, does he deserve this royal treatment? Do you believe in the bible? Do you believe he actually did all those things in the OT? If he did then he certainly is capable of causing all kinds of harm today. Why worship him? I'd say a block of wood deserves more worship. At least you can light it on fire and get some real benefit from it. Come on QC, make me a believer again.

    Oh and if you wouldn't mind actually responding instead of copy/pasting YouTube vids that you don't understand, that would be great.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos
    Its mathematics and design beauty are powerful.

    No doubt. But it's difficult to imagine a universe that would be orderly enough to permit life to develop, become intelligent, and contemplate the universe's beauty, and yet that same universe be so messy and chaotic that we would say, "Nope, definitely no design behind this, there's no way a god would be this sloppy." The two things go hand-in-hand, QC: The fact that the universe, for whatever reason, is so orderly, and the fact that we're here to observe it. For all we know, there were a trillion universes before this one that were chaotic, but even if they did support life, how would we know they existed? We have no proper basis for comparison to use as a basis for the statement "This universe is too well-designed to be accidental".

    Also, what is beauty? How do we define and perceive it? Parts of the universe are in fact very chaotic and ugly. But when we want to feel good, we focus on the pretty parts instead. For instance, the beauty of an exotic bird, or a tiger. We don't focus on the manatee, the spider, the mosquito, the buzzard. We focus on pleasant activities like painting and music, not the unpleasant activities like suffering from disease and evacuating waste from our bodies. And yet you believe that all these things were created by the same God who created us in his image. Why don't we find everything to be beautiful, then? Surely not all of those things are the fault of Adam and Eve's Original Sin (which God inexplicably holds against us even though sins are not supposed to be held against the sinner's offspring in the Mosaic Law). I could go on, but you get the idea.

    It could be that God is the reason the universe is so orderly, but if so, he's not the God of the Bible. Even when YHWH was angry and vengeful, at least he gave a damn about humans, whereas the designer of the universe, if he exists, must be much more detached from his creation. Anyway, the key point I'm trying to make it that we are well-suited to this universe because we need to be in order to thrive. As a part of that process of becoming accustomed to the universe, it's natural that we would focus on things that make us feel good, and that release dopamine in our brains. The alternative is to be afraid and depressed all the time. But we still have to acknowledge reality to some degree, or our actions will be ill-informed, and we'll just be deluding ourselves and confusing others who listen to us.

  • QC
    QC

    Guys, we agree creation is gorgeous. We agree the Earth has horror.

    But this dichotomy is explained. Free-will choice created hostility which has spillover into Earth’s psyche, a kind of “chaos theory” ripples.

    Ro 8:19-21 " CREATION eagerly waits with anticipation for God's sons…creation was subjected to futility…creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of corruption ."

    So, we were born into a schizophrenic world with contradictions,

    Gn 3:15 “hostility between…your offspring and her offspring.”

    There is a two-polarity battle for the mind of man. Question is, which polarity has the strongest pull on our hearts? Which heirs own the future?

  • QC
    QC
    Gopher: The order of events known from science is just the opposite.

    Take a closer look.

    Science Cambrian Big Bang (animal life explosion) starts at ~500my; the Biblical 5 th day start for animal life agrees (~.5by).

  • cofty
    cofty

    The "Cambrian explosion" does not require your superstious stories QC.

    There is nothing about the world that requires the meddling of a designer.

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