by You Know 116 Replies latest watchtower bible
ChristianObserver,
You got a lot of doubletalk, (doublespeak) from You Know. What Christendom is to the Watchtower Society is every Christian religion - except, Jehovah's Witnesses - But to most Jehovah's Witnesses Christendom has come to mean "every" religion except Jehovah's Witnesses.
Borgfree
"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home." Edward R. Murrow
oh, ok....
The jews were god chosen people. they get credit for PRODUCING the SON OF GOD simply because he was a Jew and had a jewish heritage.
You are eliminating the fact that God intervened and CAUSED the birth to take place.
You are eliminating the fact that he had an existance BEFORE he was born (as a jew).
In effect, you are minimizing everything that made Jesus the Christ!
The original disciples may have been under the jewish law, but it (the jewish law) did not move them to be disciple, Christ did. They would not have come to be disciples just by virtue of being under "the law".
A kingdom by definition:
king·dom Pronunciation Key (kngdm)A true "King" does not need power to "assert" his authority. His authority is made manifest in his actions toward his subjects.
n.
1. A political or territorial unit ruled by a sovereign.2a. The eternal spiritual sovereignty of God or Christ.
2b. The realm of this sovereignty.3.A realm or sphere in which one thing is dominant: the kingdom of the imagination.
4. One of the three main divisions (animal, vegetable, and mineral) into which natural organisms and objects are classified.
The highest taxonomic classification into which organisms are grouped, based on fundamental similarities and common ancestry. One widely accepted taxonomic system designates five such classifications: animals, plants, fungi, prokaryotes, and protoctists. See table at taxonomy.
You are also applying man made restrictions of "legal basis" and "communication/education" to a "spiritual" kingdom.
.....
yk-
i havent bothered with you for awhile, simply because your writings have been so nonsensical that they didnt even warrant a comment. this one though, i cant resist.....
For that matter, even though ancient Israel frequently went astray and brought more or less reproach upon Jehovah, they nonetheless were a success in that they preserved the holy writings and produced the Christthe jews were a "success" because they "produced the christ"?? lol, thats one of the better blubber statements ive heard from you in some time. so they were a "success" because god allowed jesus to be born unto them? did they somehow choose to "produce the christ"? how does ancient isreal take credit for what god decided? youre a funny duck yk, ill give you that. got any more nonsense for us?
aa
You Know:
Question about "Christendom":
You said:
During the time leading up to Christ's presence, those few and scattered anointed ones had no choice but to worship within the confines of apostate Christendom...How does one get "apostate christendom" prior to Christ's presence? since before Christ's presence, there was no "christianity"?
The Jews had the "law" and works of the law to prove their faith unto god. When did the Jews (prior to Christ) worship within the confines of "apostate christendom"?
yk-
just one more thing.....
Well, let me just say that Jehovah has a few surprises in store for everyone. Obviously the Watchtower’s interpretations do not allow for any sort of future humiliation or captivity.you make these sorts of statements often, and i wonder, what gives you this delusion that you are the only one who has all of the answers? does god speak directly to you? you obvioulsy believe that your grasp on bible prophesy is greater than even your precious watchtower (and apparently you believe your grasp to be greater than any other man on earth).........are you the messiah? lol.
aa
Simwitness
You are eliminating the fact that God intervened and CAUSED the birth to take place.
That's understood. But, Jehovah also miraculously caused the birth of Israel, in that when Sarah and Abraham were beyond child-bearing years Jehovah caused them to bear a child, Issac, who himself bore two sons, one being Jacob, whom Jehovah changed his name to Israel. So, the nation that produced Christ was itself produced by Jehovah for the purpose of producing the seed of promise.
You are eliminating the fact that he had an existance BEFORE he was born (as a jew).Again, that's understood. Perhaps I should have stated more specifically that the nation of Israel produced Christ in the flesh but not in the spirit. You have to remember that Jesus has been born a number of times, with the last time being the most important. First, he was born in the heavens eons ago as the Word and Only-begotten Son of the great Jehovah God. Then, after he foresook his heavenly nature he was born as a man, a Jewish man to be exact. But, when he was baptised at the age of thirty he was born again, in that Jehovah begot him as a heavenly, spiritual, son---again.
In effect, you are minimizing everything that made Jesus the Christ!Not at all. I was merely highlighting the part that Israel played in providing a platform, you migh say, a place for Christ to live as a human.
A true "King" does not need power to "assert" his authority. His authority is made manifest in his actions toward his subjects.Matthew 24:30 says: "And they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with POWER and great glory."
"Now has come to pass the salvation and the POWER and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ..."Revelation 12:10
"There are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in POWER." Mark 9:1
You are also applying man made restrictions of "legal basis" and "communication/education" to a "spiritual" kingdom.Jehovah is the basis for all law, man-made or otherwise. God doesn't just act arbitrarily, in that he carries out his activities within a certain legal framework that he lays down and adheres to. For example, Christ isn't just given a kingdom out of the blue, but God fulfills specific legalities having to do with covenants he made with Abraham and David. Jesus' kingdom is in fact called the throne of David. That's because Jesus was a descendant of David and therefore legally entitled to the kingdom. That gets back to why Jesus had to be a Jew and why I made the statement in the first place about Israel producing Christ. / You Know
/ You Know
Dubula
the jews were a "success" because they "produced the christ"?? lol, thats one of the better blubber statements ive heard from you in some time. so they were a "success" because god allowed jesus to be born unto them? did they somehow choose to "produce the christ"? how does ancient isreal take credit for what god decided?
I didn't say that Israel necessarily should take credit for anything. Israel's producing the Messiah was God's doing. That's like saying that Mary takes credit for producing Jesus. Yet, she did produce him in a manner of speaking. The same with Israel. Jehovah created Israel and gave them the Law of Moses for the purpose of producing the Messiah in time.
Of course, I always have to take into consideration that when it comes to the Bible apostates by nature are for the most part stupified morons who don't at all know their right hand from their left. Probably for most of you it has been years since you even cracked a Bible, yet because you are puffed up with arrogance you make a pretense at being knowledgable about things of which you are quite ignorant. But, I am more than up to the task of dealing with you. LOL / You Know
Local Wannabe anointed Priest-King said:
: Alan Fraudbacker writes: "Our local anointed Priest-King prophesied:"
: More correctly, I am not in any sense the local king-priest,
No!
: in that, this is the world-wide web. LOL. But let's don't nit-pick.
Right. Sorry. Next time I'll make "wannabe" explicit.
: To prevent this post from becoming unreadable I will simply select portions of AF's
comments and let the reader situate them in the context of my previous remarks.
Translation: "I will ignore most of what AlanF said and concentrate on what I still
think I can deceive myself with."
:: The Watchtower Society has killed the faith of hundreds of thousands and has taught
and practiced such inane things that even such a dogged "defender of the faith" as
Greg Stafford has recently stated outright that such things should not be in "Jehovah's
organization".
: That's the point.
Your response completely misses the point. The point is that when even such a dogged
defender as Stafford can see clearly what ought not be in "Jehovah's organization",
then it follows that any organization that contains "what ought not be" cannot be that
organization. To wit (I just love Rutherford's expressions), the Jehovah's Witnesses
organization contains enough trash that it cannot be -- Scripturally or logically --
"Jehovah's organization".
: The Scriptures I highlighted in the original post
Which I already proved you have misrepresented.
: prove
Not so, because you misrepresented them.
: that there are things that cause stumbling within the organization
Wrong. They say that there are things that cause stumbling in the world and that
when Christ's Kingdom is established, they will be cleaned out of the world
which by then will be controlled by that Kingdom.
You have not argued against the specific Scriptures I pointed out -- in your usual way
you've simply ignored them. Why do you constantly ignore the very Scriptures you claim
as the basis for your life?
: and there will be up until the point that Christ sends forth his angels to clear such
things out.
More misrepresentation of the Bible.
: Your reasoning doesn't at all take Jehovah's word into consideration.
It takes it fully into consideration. What it rejects is your and the Society's
nonsensical interpretations, all of which are in place for one and only one purpose:
to justify your claims that the JW organization is God's organization. In other words,
you people are breathtakingly self-serving. A perfect example is the absolutely
contentless gobble-de-gook you say next:
: When Jesus said you would recognize them by their fruits, he obviously was not speaking
in absolute terms, recognizing that there are the unavoidable causes for stumbling, as he
said elsewhere.
If he was not speaking in absolute terms (whatever that's supposed to mean), then he was
speaking in relatively terms. What the hell is that supposed to mean?
It's obvious that you're a practiced hand in your local congregation at spewing such
bullshit, but it doesn't work on us, Bobby.
: To point out that stumbling blocks exist, as you have done, is to merely verify what
Christ said about such things.
Here you go with the circular arguments again. Your claim would be true only if everything
else you've said is true, but because it has been proved false, your statement here is
also false.
:: While Stafford does not come right out and say it, it's pretty obvious that he agrees
with the most grievous of all criticisms voiced by critics: that JW leaders have set
themselves in the seat of Jesus Christ. Sincere JWs who voice disagreement with JW
leaders are summarily disfellowshipped or declared disassociated and shunned in order to
shut them up. This happens even to JWs who voice only a small disagreement with the
Society. Of course, because of this, JW leaders come under the direct and clear
condemnation of Proverbs 17:15: "Anyone pronouncing the wicked one righteous and anyone
pronouncing the righteous one wicked -- even both of them are something detestable to
Jehovah." Can it get any clearer than this?
: You are preaching to the choir here.
Not so's anyone can notice.
: I know there are problems like that. Those are some of the very causes for stumbling
that Christ said would exist in his kingdom up until Judgment Day.
The "kingdom of the world", right.
: It doesn't take any great insight to see that there are problems.
Right. And so it's painfully obvious that Watchtower leaders, from Russell through today's
nincompoops, have no insight. That alone disqualifies them from their claim of being a
composite "faithful and discreet slave", and by their own and any reasonable logic,
from comprising "Jehovah's organization". Furthermore, because they claim to be "the ones
having insight" of Daniel 12, but they have proved not to be, not only is their claim
false, which proves them to be false teachers and therefore false prophets, but Daniel 12
itself proves that they cannot be a "faithful slave", because it calls them "wicked".
Daniel 12:10 states: "none of the wicked will understand, but those who have
insight will understand." And of course, all of these words of Daniel apply to the very
"time of the end" in which you yourself claim we're now living. So, Bobby, any way you
look at it, JW leaders are false teachers, false prophets, and wicked men. Therefore
anyone who puts faith in them as "God's spokesmen", as you do, is doomed to extreme
disappointment, because they do not comprise "God's organization".
: Where the insight comes in is in is discerning how Jehovah is going to deal with the
problems.
And you yourself have proved yourself singular capable of discerning what Jehovah is
going to do, have you not? Based on your Scriptural interpretations you correctly
discerned that "the end" would come in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002. You did this by
means of a variety of insightful discernings, such as discerning that it was virtually
certain that twice the magic number of 40 years from 1919 or so would get us to 1999 or
2000 or at the most, 2001 and therefore "the end" couldn't come any time beyond that.
: As in most areas of life, recognizing problems is the easy part. Finding solutions is
much harder.
Indeed, and you've been amazingly successful at finding solutions that have proved
to work.
: I have found the only scripturally correct and satisfying answer to the critical
challenges confronting Jehovah's Witnesses presently.
Translation: "I have found an effective way to keep myself deceived that Jehovah's
Witnesses are God's only true spokesmen despite the fact that I know they're wicked.
That's because I won't have any life at all without my hope of Real Soon Now becoming
a Priest-King."
:: In your customary fashion, Bobby, you misrepresent even that which you hypocritically
claim you believe is God's Word. In this illustration to which you refer, Jesus is talking
about "weeds" being sown in 'the field of the world' -- not "within the true religion".
When "the Son of man arrives in his glory" he establishes his Kingdom over the world, and
proceeds to clean out of it all the nasty weeds and such. So here you've deliberately
misrepresented what the Bible clearly says is Jesus' Kingdom, and equated it with
"the true religion" which you claim is that of Jehovah's Witnesses. In this, you're as
vilely deceitful as the worst of the Society's writers -- and as reprehensible before
your God.
: Part of the problem here is that, ironically enough, you are bound by the Watchtower's
somewhat faulty interpretation of Jesus' prophetic parable, which I suppose is poetic
justice.
Not at all. I simply noted what the Bible itself says. I note that you take no issue with
any specifics that I pointed out that the Bible itself says. But this is your usual tack,
Bobby -- ignoring what you need to in order to keep yourself deceived. You're so
predictable in this, and your next statement shows how after ignoring what you can't deal
with, you simply proceed as if nothing were amiss:
: At any rate, the truth of the matter is, that up until the moment of Christ's arrival
there is not a clear distinction between the world and the sons of the kingdom. That's
why it is neccesary for Christ's angels to "collect out from his kingdom all things
that cause stumbling and persons doing lawlessness."
No problem with this as far as it goes. Your problem is in thinking that "the sons of
the kingdom" reside exclusively within the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. But if
these "sons" are collected by angels only after Christ arrives, then there is no
way for any human today to know who these "sons" are. Yet you claim to know, and so you
disagree with the Bible. Most Christians believe that these "sons" can be found in
any Christian religion because it's evident to thinking persons that good and bad,
righteousness and unrighteousness, faithfulness and faithlessness, sincerity and
hypocrisy, are found in every religion.
Now, an organization is comprised of its component parts, and so if "God's organization"
today is comprised of components called "sons of the kingdom", then if these "sons of the
kingdom" can be found in many different religions, it is evident that if God has any
organization at all, it must be the entire worldwide community of Christians -- and
certainly not exclusively the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. This is easy enough to
see because virtually all of your arguments can just as well be applied to the worldwide
Christian community as to the JW community.
: Did you notice that there are more than just weeds collected? Jesus said that "ALL
THINGS CAUSING STUMBLING" would be collected out. Out from where? The scripture says they
will be collected "OUT FROM HIS KINGDOM."
Again no problem so far as it goes. But as I pointed out, the Bible itself equates
this "Kingdom" with "the field of the world" -- not the organization of Jehovah's
Witnesses. Why do you keep disagreeing with the Bible?
This is so easy. Matthew 13:37-41 states that Jesus sows "good seed" in "the field of the
world" and the devil sows "bad seed" there as well. Later Jesus sends angels to reap the
"tares" -- from where? From "field of the world", of course. Jesus states
(Matthew 13:30, 40) that these "tares" would be burned up. He also states
(Matthew 13:41, 42) that the reapers or angels "will gather out of His kingdom all
stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace
of fire." Thus it is evident that the "tares" are the "stumbling blocks, and those who
commit lawlessness". And again, where are these "tares" gathered from? From "the field of
the world." Because Matthew 13:41 states that these things will be gathered "out of his
Kingdom", it is obvious that "his Kingdom" in the illustration and therefore in its
fulfillment is "the field of the world".
: The things that cause stumbling are not the things of the world.
Correct. They are the "tares" -- the "sons of the evil one".
: Otherwise how could anyone stumble over the things of the world? LOL
Whatever that means!
: The things that cause stumbling are the things within Christ's very own congregation of
anointed ones.
We have seen once again that the Bible says something quite different.
:: What nonsense! Ezekiel's prophecy concerned the repatriation of the Jews from
Babylonian captivity. Ezekiel 36:11 makes this clear, and destroys your claim that it
concerns anything about Jehovah's Witnesses today:
: LOL. You really have no business trying to interpret prophecy.
Your pristine record of 100% failure qualifies you, I suppose.
Of course, we again note that you completely ignored every argument I made -- again
entirely from the Bible -- proving that your notions are wrong.
: But, that the prophecy applies to spiritual Israle and not the physical nation is
evident from the 34th chapter where Jehovah says that he will raise up "My servant David"
and transfer his reclaimed sheep under his care. This is a reference to the son of David,
Jesus Christ.
Nonsense. As with Ezekiel 36, the application of the 34 chapter is clear from the few
clear references it contains. Ezekiel 36:27 states (NASB) that after this "David" becomes
a "prince among them", "they will know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bars of
their yoke and have delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them." In the
context of Ezekiel's speaking during the Jews' Babylonian captivity, it is obvious
that the prophecies concern the restoraton of physical Israel back to its homeland in
Judah. It is obvious that the prophecies were fulfilled when the Jews returned to
Judah. Anything beyond that is pure speculation.
The proof that these prophecies have nothing to do with your claim that the leaders
of Jehovah's Witnesses who claim to be part of this "spiritual Israel" are part of
yet-to-be-fulfilled parts of Ezekiel's prophecies is trivial: these leaders are not
today in any sort of "Babylonian captivity" so that God must deliver "them from the
hand of those who enslaved them", and this so-called "spiritual Israel" is not now and
never has been, by any measure you or the Society can come up with. You have only to
give a sound argument to the contrary to prove your claims. But as usual, any response
you make will ignore these facts, just as you must ignore requests for proof that JW
leaders do indeed exclusively comprise a "faithful and discreet slave".
So let's see you put your money where your foot is, Bobby, and give a specific answer
to these questions:
How does Ezekiel 34:27 apply to JW leaders today?
How does Ezekiel 36:11 apply to JW leaders today?
Readers will note how you sidestepped -- clumsily as usual -- my previous asking for
an answer to the latter:
:: I shall actually cause YOU to be inhabited as in YOUR former condition..." This
obviously applies to the Babylonian captivity, and if the prophecy were fulfilled
at all, it was obviously fulfilled when the Jews returned to Judah some decades
later. And because the Jehovah's Witnesses are not in any sort of "Babylonish captivity"
today -- even by their own prophetic interpretations -- the entire prophecy of which
verse 36:11 is a part cannot apply to them.
: Well, let me just say that Jehovah has a few surprises in store for everyone.
That's not an answer. It's an excuse that allows you to tell yourself that you don't
need one.
: Obviously the Watchtower's interpretations do not allow for any sort of future
humiliation or captivity.
Nor do they, nor does the Bible itself, allow for the sort of captivity and enslavement
to "Babylon" that must be the case today if your interpretations apply
today.
: But, that's because his judgments have been concealed from them for the time being.
Ah! But you know better!
: When once the system blows though, then all bets are off. That's when we enter the
conclusion phase, when Christ moves more directly against the apostate element within
his organization.
LOL! If that happens, it'll result in 95% of Bethel elders, and probably 90% of those
outside Bethel, being toast. What an insane view of the Watchtower religion you've
developed, Bobby! You admit that 95% of the very ones who invented and uphold this vile
religion are apostates, and yet you still claim they invented and support "the one true
religion" today. How can you fail to recognize the irony in this? Oh I know! It's
because you've convinced yourself that there's no problem in believing blatantly
contradictory things. Obviously you've considered the contradictions inherent in your
views and figured out a way to get around them. You truly are nuts. You don't understand
how thoroughly insane your response here is:
:: Dismantling the Watchtower organization is one solution. Getting rid of 95% of the
top leadership and replacing it with decent human beings is another.
: Well, as you know, I did write a piece about a year ago that caused a little bit of
stir, entitled: "Why the Watchtower is Doomed." LOL / You Know
I rest my case.
AlanF
Dubula
you make these sorts of statements often, and i wonder, what gives you this delusion that you are the only one who has all of the answers?
I don't think I am the ONLY one with all the answers. There's a few others out there.
you obvioulsy believe that your grasp on bible prophesy is greater than even your precious watchtower (and apparently you believe your grasp to be greater than any other man on earth).........are you the messiah?Did you never read in the Psalms where it says:
"Wiser than my enemies your commandment makes me,
Because to time indefinite it is mine.
More insight than all my teachers I have come to have,
Because your reminders are a concern to me.
With more understanding than older men I behave,
Because I have observed your orders."
LOL / You Know
You Know:
a few things:
1. I did not say that a king did not have Power. I said that a "true king" did not NEED power to ASSERT his authority.
2. You quoted:
"There are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in POWER." Mark 9:1
So, wouldn't that mean that the kingdom of god is already here (and has been?)? Or are those people still walking around? (or was it not really meant for them to whom it was said and it was "really" meant for "some other time").
3. If Jesus was the "fullfillment" of the Law, doesnt that mean that god has fullfilled his requirements under it? and that he has completed all of his requirements?
4. If you are looking for an "earhly kingdom" (as the Pharisees were) aren't you missing the point? Christ's Kingdom is not of this earth, it is a spiritual one. All those who recognize him as king are therefore his subjects, and his Kingdom is created.
......
