Short comment regarding Jehovah's Witnesses and baptism. Jesus gave incredibly clear instructions on baptism that are ignored by the organization. Mt 28:19 says (in part, from the NWT):".....baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit." I have been to hundreds of assemblies and heard the baptism talks at each one. I do not once remember hearing this phrase invoked at any of them, including my own. This being so, begs the question: Is any baptism that does not meet the Bibles standards as instructed by Jesus himself, valid before God, Jesus, and the holy spirit? My personal opinion is: NO!! All Jehovah's Witnesses are dedicated and baptized into is an organization (recall the 2 questions asked at the end of the baptismal talk; neither mentions Jehovah, Jesus or the holy spirit) which is headed by imperfect men who change the rules in the midst of the game, and tilt the playing field in their favor to whatever angle that may entail. My 2c.....Big Mama
Julia's Inquisition - Two elders, the full version! I want you all to see this.
by Julia Orwell 81 Replies latest jw friends
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00DAD
Baptismal Questions, from the June 1, 1985 Watchtower:
(1) On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
(2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?
There is absolutely nothing about any "Governing Body" or a "Faithful and Discreet Slave" anywhere in there!
Also, (and I know that WT Legal has made assertions to the contrary, but) "in association with" is in no way the same as "in submission to." It just isn't.
The WTBTS consistently tries to assert that baptism vows say things that they do not. It's a religious shell-game.
Also, since they want to be so friggin' business-like in their approach to worship, where do they get off spinning this as some sort of unilateral contract which they can change at whim, but the rest of us are bound for all eternity to be obedient to a group of bumbling leaders that can't even figure out what the word "generation" means and were wrong about their own "prophetic" identity for the last 93 years?
It really is ridiculous!
00DAD
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respectful_observer
Thanks for posting.
A few things jumped out at me.
Preppy: Then what has changed in 13 years?
"Ummm...let's see. The meaning of "the generation"...twice. Deciding the Faithful and Discreet Slave is actually just the Governing Body. What forms of life saving blood-based treatments are or aren't acceptable. Shall I go on?"
GO: Do you believe the Governing Body are Jesus's FDS?
Me: I choose not to answer that.
It just dawned on me that they use this question to decide whether to give someone the boot, but it's not asked (at least not this clearly) as part of the written questions, or as an oral question during the Baptism Talk. Can you imagine if they did? "Do you believe the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is Jesus' 'Faithful and Discreet Slave' and serves as Jehovah God's sole channel of scriptural truth? Your response, please?"
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00DAD
GO: Do you believe the Governing Body are Jesus's FDS?
00DAD: How would I know? They didn't even know for the last 93 years! Besides, this "New-Light" hasn't been printed in the WT yet, so maybe it's just a rumor!
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respectful_observer
Two questions for the group:
1. Have the elders been instructed on what to say when it's discovered that the person has read the "Flock" book? The line of questioning Julia got seems very similar to some of the recorded JCs I've seen/heard.
2. What can/do elders do when the subject of the Judicial Committee refuses to answer certain questions, especially the "loyalty" questions? Anyone have any experience as either a member or the subject of a JC? As long as you haven't incriminated yourself or voiced beliefs that are contrary to WTS teachings, they have no "evidence" against you. (Although come to think about it, refusing to answer may be considered "BRAZEN CONDUCT", I suppose.)
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respectful_observer
00DAD: How would I know? They didn't even know for the last 93 years!
Hahaha!!! PERFECT response!!!
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besty
Also, since they want to be so friggin' business-like in their approach to worship, where do they get off spinning this as some sort of unilateral contract which they can change at whim, but the rest of us are bound for all eternity to be obedient to a group of bumbling leaders that can't even figure out what the word "generation" means and were wrong about their own "prophetic" identity for the last 93 years?
word.
might be worth using a surprised version of this in similar fishing expeditions
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Amelia Ashton
"Do you believe the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is Jesus' 'Faithful and Discreet Slave' and serves as Jehovah God's sole channel of scriptural
truth? Your response, please?"
Who would get baptised if this were asked? I would have because I did believe that at the time. We had one elder describe the Sunday Watchtower Study as "our personal letter from Jehovah"! -
cofty
You did brilliantly Julia.
Please let us know how things go next.