Julia's Inquisition - Two elders, the full version! I want you all to see this.

by Julia Orwell 81 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  DATA-DOG

  Julia, if they talk to you again just say this " I have been thinking about our last conversation. I was under a lot of stress. I may have responded emotionally and not made my thoughts clear. When you asked me about the GB/FDS, I feel that I could have answered that better. I needed time to think about my response. It is clear from the scriptures that GOD can use anyone he wishes, and I do believe that this is Jehovah's Organization."

  You can say that because it is JEHOVAH'S ORGANIZATION. just don't say that their Jehovah is not the God you believe in. They do not really know YHWH or they would not be acting like they do. They serve the Governing Popes/FDS/Jehovah inc.

  Then you could say, " I am loyal to Christ, my mediator, whom my Heavenly Father has placed over the entire Universe for the forseeable future, plus 1,000 years according our beliefs. I am loyal to Christ above any man, or group of men. I have no problem supporting anyone who is loyal to Christ Jesus."

  This may sound strange, but I would suggest actually writing this in a letter. This way you can formulate your thoughts and word it exactly how you wish. You may as well, because at this point it will help you. They already have 2 witnesses, and they are talking about you right now. Young Brother Cocky Mcspiritual is gunning for you, make no mistake about this. Talk about some legitimate questions you have about errors in the WT teachings. Pick something that is not too controversial, like " Superior Authorities " or " The resurrection of Sodom and Gomorah ", don't go for the kill, it will get you nowhere. Also mention the rising number of partakers and show all the numbers from the yearbook. Make it clear that doctrine does change and that mistakes have been made in the past. Use that as your reasons for wondering about " unknowns " use that word specifically.

  Make sure you quote directly from the WTBTS publications. Mention zero outside sources. Make sure to quote all the instances of the GB saying that they are not infallible. Throw in a " what if " example like this perhaps, " Brother so and so, if you had lived in the past with Moses and Aaron, and you knew that Moses was going to claim to bring water from the rock at Meribah, would you have warned him? He was directly appointed by Jehovah, but he made a grave mistake. Would you have been a Korah-like rebel, deserving of death?"

  Then perhaps add that it is unfair for them to attempt to equate you with Korah. Given what has already happened, I highly reccomend doing this. It will accomplish a few things, 1) Your words will be very clear 2) The WTBTS's flip-flops will be presented all at once for persons who otherwise may not have seen them 3) It will expose their character, they will have to lie to DF you. If they back off they will prove themselves to be in error and cowards. They will leave you alone because they will have nothing to hang you with. 4) Your actual words will be on permanent record. I know that may sound odd, but you have nothing to lose at this point. You need to strike while they are still thinking and are off guard.

  This Younger Elder thinks that he is the shizz. It will not take him long to sway the BOE. IMO, you should act quickly. I did something very similar and in the end the CO was involved. His conclusion? " He is not an apostate, but he could be.." That was the finding of the CO, the spiritual better of the Elders. That means they had nothing, zero, nada. The worst thing they could do was take away michrophone duties..

  Think about it, because they are..

  Peace,

  DD
• 

  BluesBrother

  It would be easier to recant, but Ray Franz didn't do that, Martin Luther didn't do that, and Jesus didn't do that.

  Best line of all

  You have done a good job of presenting your concerns in a way that puts you into the category of one in need of mercy, rather than apostate. After all, The Bible says:

  Jude 22/23

  " Also, continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; 23?save [them] by snatching [them] out of the fire. But continue showing mercy to others, "

  If one keeps the issues as questions rather than arguments, then they have a job to prove their case. If the worst happens, you have the right of appeal.

  I have had discussions like yours and now they seem to be leaving me alone. I do not go around the congregation discussing my concerns, much as I would like to....
• 

  Xanthippe

  Well done Julia. Sometimes I wish I'd faded when I left 24 years ago instead of D'ad but when I read accounts like yours there is no way I could have coped with all that. Who do they think they are to put you through all that. Monsters! You have my admiration. Just don't put yourself through too much for the sake of being a 'good' person. Do you know what I mean? You have been through enough. Take care
• 

  Pistoff

  I admire the desire to be honest and truthful, but I don't think I would be when talking to elders.

  I don't like lying or withholding information, but they are the first ones to do it when talking to rank and file members.

  1. They say they are there to help; not really, they want to know if they should disfellowship you.

  2. They say they want to know what you think; they only want to know if you are actively apostate.

  3. They say or imply that they respect confidentiality; that is an absolute out and out lie.

  4. They operate with a hidden agenda and with information from the Flock book, yes, but also with non-written agendas from the CO.

  Also, I really don't like elders, there, I said it.

  Good luck, Julia.
• 

  kurtbethel

  Julia, you made great art of dancing around their snares, and avoiding their fallacious logic.

  That was an interesting question, about if you have the right to read the Flock book.

  If the Watchtower is being truthful when they say they have no clergy-laity distinction, then you have every right to read the Flocked book that they do. If they can read the book, but say you have no right to, then they are giving lie to the Watchtower claim of having no clergy-laity distinction

  This was a minor point to them, but a very important point when it comes to the credibility of the organization.

  So if they flock you, will we be hearing the recording?

  
• 

  yourmomma

  that was great, thanks for sharing. sadly, anything other than a clear yes to the loyalty question is going to result in you getting DF'd. the only way around them is to outright lie. "i dont know" is just as bad as no. they are a cult, and anything less than 100% loyalty to the cult leaders is not tolerated. hopefully this reality will help your husband wake up when he see what they do. good luck.
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  clarity

  Well Julia..... plse don't concern yourself with what Luther did, or

  Ray Franz or Jesus. Be concerned with what is best for you & your guy!

  >

  You are not under obligation to live up to anyone!

  Do not be a martyre .... it isn't in your best interests!

  >

  best wishes

  clarity
• 

  Open mind

  Hi there Julia.

  I agree with yourmomma's opinion above and here's a bit more to consider if you care to read it.

  Given the right circumstances, virtually every rational, moral person will "lie". The only disagreement I have with the WT policy on "lying" is semantics.
  
  The WT says that it is ALWAYS wrong to lie. Therefore, in order for a JW to not tell the Nazis where the Bibles are hidden, the WT comes up with an unothodox definition of the word "lie". They say that it's not lying to withhold the truth from someone who isn't "entitled" to know the information.
  
  I hate to admit it, but I actually agree with most of the Watchtower's policy on lying. There are only two key differences between my approach and the Watchtower's.
  
  1. The definition of "lie". I think it's best to try to use language accurately to help facilitate good communication. Most people would probably agree with these two dictionary definitions:
  
  *to make an untrue statement with the intent to deceive
  
  *to create a false or misleading impression
  
  So when the JW tells the Nazi Gestapo officers that they don't know where the Bibles and Watchtowers are, most people would call that a lie. It's a morally justifiable lie, but still a lie. But since JWs tend to prefer their world view in black and white, they redefine "lie" so that they can in good conscience say that they didn't lie.
  
  2. What circumstances does it take to make a lie morally justified?
  
  It would be a pretty rare person who would feel morally obligated to tell the Nazis that the Jews are in the attic. Now it's just a big gray slippery slide to where you individually draw the line as to what circumstances would justify lying.
  
  Here's my justification for lying to the elders, should that showdown ever occur. The Watchtower has created a system that violates a basic human need: access to family and/or friends. Therefore, I would have zero moral compunction in telling the Watchtower's company men what they want to hear.
  
  
  If you feel that you are morally obligated to continue to refuse to answer their "loyalty oath" question, it will very likely result in you eventually getting DFed, IMO.
  
  Just my $.02 for your consideration.
  
  You're the one who has to live with the fallout, not us.

  All the best to you and your husband,

  om
• 

  00DAD

  Preppy Elder: So what makes you doubt it now? Julia Orwell: Reality.

  Love it, just love it!!! You go girl!
• 

  poppers

  Here's my justification for lying to the elders, should that showdown ever occur. The Watchtower has created a system that violates a basic human need: access to family and/or friends. Therefore, I would have zero moral compunction in telling the Watchtower's company men what they want to hear.

  Well said, Open Mind - a very powerful and succinct statement that cuts right to the core of it.