greatest show on earth

by unstopableravens 273 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    You are missing the point. It is nothing to do with god (except, if there was a god it would make him a shit designer), it gives us insight as to how the morphology evolved. By looking at the pathways we can ascertain how these structures evolved.

    In the case of the t he giraffe's recurrent larangeal nerve route it should have travelled direct from the brain to the neck. However its convoluted route reflects that of fish, where this nerve travels from the brain, past the heart, to the gills. The only logical explanation for this pathway is that as the neck extended and the heart became lower in the body, the laryngeal nerve was caught on the wrong side of the heart. Natural selection resulted in a gradually lengthening neck and the nerve lengthened with it following the same route.

    If this was a design feature by god - why? Why did he make it look like this nerve evolved rather than desinging it intelligently?

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Tammy, read it, I promise you will enjoy it (and you will understand it ).

    It is an explanation of the evidences for evolution, not a science book in the strictest terms.

  • unstopableravens
    unstopableravens

    cant leave: i understand that point,and i dont know why, but not knowing why "god" did that does not prove hes not there. and him designing it,just like evolution may learn new things maybe one day god will tell us why.

  • tec
    tec

    Been busy, but good, Unstop, thanks. (thought i was getting the flu for a couple days, and that would have sucked to have to go back to the flu shot thread and admit that, lol... but I just had a cold)

    Is he arguing against God, or against ID?

    Either way, I'm sure i'll have to pick up the book and see for myself ;)

    Peace,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    Tammy, read it, I promise you will enjoy it (and you will understand it ).

    Kay. I accept the process of evolution, so I never felt any particular need to pick these books up. But I did get a kindle for christmas that i have yet to try out :)

    Peace,

    tammy

  • cofty
    cofty

    Unstop - you are taking a scatter-gun approach to this.

    How about being more systematic?

    Three or four of us have explained the theory/fact issue to you in detail and instead of acknowledging that you rush off to another point.

    Please could you provide specific references to where you think Dawkins is pushing an atheist agenda?

    The book contains over 400 pages of pure science and yet so far you haven't mentioned a single scientific point.

    The section on "The great chain of being" that you mentioned is not an attack on theism at all. It is a refutaion of a very common misunderstanding of evolution that casues people to ask silly questins about "missing links".

    The medieval myth of the Great Chain of Being persists in the minds of many. God reigned from the top of the ladder above various ranks of angels, humans, assorted animals then plants and inanimate objects. (I seem to remember a watchtower equivalent) Of course in this male-centric worldview women and the various races of mankind each took their subjective places on the imaginary ladder.

    Although this mental image may have been partially dismantled, there is still a casual assumption that living things have some kind of ranking. It seems natural to suppose that lower creatures evolved into higher ones and therefore it seems reasonable to ask, “Where are the missing links?”

    For example, it seems obvious that chimpanzees are higher animals than earthworms doesn’t it? We may even assume that evolution makes this fact even clearer and justifies it. In fact such thinking is deeply flawed and antithetical to evolution.

    Consider what we may actually mean when we assert that chimps are “higher” than earthworms.

    1. Perhaps we have in mind that monkeys evolved from earthworms - This is a just plain wrong, chimps and worms share a common ancestor. It is this kind of thinking that causes creationists to ask daft questions like why are there still chimps today if they evolved into humans? Or, where are the fossils of all the crocoducks or fronkeys? Australian creationist John McKay has been touring British schools, masquerading as a geologist, and teaching children this kind of nonsense.

    2. We may mean that the common ancestor of chimps and worms looked a lot more like a worm than a monkey – This may be true but it really tells us nothing useful about the two creatures we are comparing. It’s just as likely that both animals have diverged equally in different directions from their common ancestor. Also it is likely that different parts of an animal will be more or less “primitive” than other parts. For example a horses hoof is simpler than a human foot (it has a single digit to our 5) but it is the human foot that is more “primitive” our common ancestor had 5 digits.

    3. Often there are any one of a number of odd assertions in our mind when we try to rank animals by some arbitrary scale – cleverer, prettier, bigger genomes, more complicated body plans etc. These are all pointless judgments. Animals may rank highly on one ladder and poorly on another. A salamander has a smaller brain than some mammals but it has a bigger genome!

    4. Often we are in fact judging how much an animal is similar to us humans when we rank them in our minds. Why? This is a very important point that we need to get over if we are going to understand the world. Evolution had no point, it has not been slaving away all these years for the purpose of making you and I. This is why we find ourselves asking questions like “what is the point of cockroaches?” There is no point; they are gene machines just like us. Do not make the mistake of using humans as the gold standard of living things.

    5. OK so at least are chimps are better evolved to survive than lower animals? This assumption just does not hold up. Insects rule the world while some of our most majestic creature teeter on the edge of extinction.


    It is just nonsense to rank modern species on an imaginary ladder. It is this wrong-headed way of seeing the world that prompts demands for “missing links”. When paleontologists rush to offer fossils like Archaeopteryx in response they are in fact pandering to a fallacy.

    The section on design flaws is also not an attack on theism. It is a response to Intelligent Design.

    As I said earlier this is NOT an atheist book - it is a sceince book. Let's discuss science.

  • unstopableravens
    unstopableravens

    cofty: what is your thought about page 386 that i mentioned above? what point would you like to disuss?

  • cofty
    cofty

    Page 386 is in the middle of the chapter about Evolutionary Arms Races.

    Natural selection pushes both predator and prey to evolve increasingly effective ways of killing or escaping. Dawkins provides lots of interesting examples.

    Each side invests massive costs in this pointless enterprise. Cheetahs and gazelles both evolve to run faster and faster but neither sides benefits in the long term.

    Dawkins makes the logical point that this is precisely what evolution would predict but is hard to reconcile with Intelligent Design. Running faster has a significant cost in terms of energy needs and risk of accidents. An ID could simply have fixed it so that predator and prey both run at around 20mph with huge savings to both species and the same outcomes in terms of predator-prey encounters.

    what point would you like to disuss?

    Well its your thread so you choose. There are almost 500 pages of scientific evidence for evolution. What part did you find most challenging?

  • J. Hofer
    J. Hofer

    i think i get what you want to say, unstoppable, you think that that whole "light is getting brigher" also applies to science... the funny thing is, that rutherford back then applied that whole bright light stuff to science and technological achievements, like the railroad, automobiles and dynamite :D

    the big difference between science and "the truth" is, that science does accept well founded contrary evidence and ajusts to it. it's open to public criticism. a theory can't be established before going through peer review and hard evidence. it's not like there's a pope or a governing body deciding which current light we're believing in today and which to change tomorrow.

  • unstopableravens
    unstopableravens

    cofty: my point was he mocks the idea about god when the animal food chain proves god to me. its not a valid conclusion its his opinion same as mine. through out the whole book he puts down creationist and than makes a point,almost everything he says he puts down id and says history deniers etc and we would expct this to happen but if there were id it should be done this way, i noticed in alot of these points he says might or maybe or perhaps because . nothing is concrete in here . even with the section on tree rings. in the first paragraph he says assuming.... so alot of what you call science proff is just a guess and still does not prove evolution. i dont want to jump so please give me a point you like and we can disuss from there.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit