athiest this is for you! (page 11)

cantleave

When you say it to my buddy Punk - you say it to me

unstopableravens

what are you punk and desings the unholy trinity?

unstopableravens

lol he must be demoted to amicheal the archangel

Saul's request for foreskins had nothing to do with God. God did not request the foreskins but Saul did. Saul was not in the best moral standing himself and such a depraved request would probably not be surprising. God doesn't control every action someone does but he lets us use free will to decide how we will act. If he didn't then it would go against God's whole being.

It's similar with Abraham taking Hagar for a wife upon Sarah's request due to their lack of faith that God would produce a seed through Sarah. They tried to implement God's plan with their own hands and bad resulted from it. God allowed it but didn't put his stamp of approval on it. He formed the original union to be man and wife not wives. This was always the intent but humanity in a sinful state fell short of these ideals.

I'll just touch on one of your points as my time is limited due to various other matters in my day. With the death of David and Bathsheba's son it was a consequence of the action but not the punishment. Many other unsavory results fell upon David due to his incorrect choice. The problem was the violation of God's law, the hypocrisy was observed by other nations, and God was dishonored. Paul also made this same charge against the Jews centuries late in Romans 2:21-24 David's triumphs and equally or perhaps great his sins were widely noted by gentile nations. Had nothing resulted from the matter the other nations might have reasoned that if God doesn't deal with the sin of his saints neither will he care of ours. This would result in a mockery of God as they would have confidence in getting away with their sins.

Now the penalty of the sin was not the death of David's child but rather a consequence. David's penalty was rightly death! David realized his sin upon God's disclosure through Nathan's discourse and repented. He continues in lamentation of repentance during his childs illness. He had faith in God's soveriegnty and this faith was put into action by his repentance. Unfortunetly the child born in sin does pass away but notice the comfort found in 2 Samuel 12:23 - "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him but he shall not return to me." After this passage David gets up, washes, annoints himself, changes his clothes, and goes to praise God. We might find this strange but I think David found solace in the death of his son because of the assurance that he while the child may not return to be with him in life he would be with the child in heaven.

We also get an insight into God's view of Children in the Old Testament at Jonah 4:5-11. It is made clear to Jonah that he does not desire to bring wrath upon 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand. Nor is the desire even for animals to perish. Those who can't reason such as animals or children who don't know the difference between right and left hand are differentiated from those who can make a logical free will choice. The desire of God is not to destroy the Ninevite children and he rebukes Jonah for being angry at his Grace upon them.

Also according to the Old and New Testaments children are not to suffer divine condemnation for their parents. Deuteronomy 24:16 - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for their own sin." Jeremiah 31:30 - "everyone will die for his own iniquity" The bible is clear that we all have sin by nature even upon our birth as sin entered through Adam and Eve. This foundation is layed in Romans Chapters 1-3. However their is distinction in being a sinner by nature and sinner by deed. Romans 7 speaks of being alive apart from the law and then being alive to the law. Specifically Romans 7:9 - "I was once alive apart from the law. but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died." The seems to indicate an age of accountability and would coincide with God's view of the Ninevite children. At what age one is accountable is unknown nor may it be the same for everyone.

I think the real key to this whole point is whether we die as an infant or as an adult we all require the Salvation from sin through Jesus the Christ. Also we know God loves children and doesn't judge them for anothers sins. Even Jesus loved the little children. While this seems a horrific event for David's child we find encouragement that God has bestowed his grace upon all even that little child. God's gave up his own Son for us as a portrayal of his love for us. - John 3:16 Jesus died in a very horific manner but it demonstrates the perfection of God's holiness. We can not understand the perfection of God in our state and find it hard to comprehend but more importantly we have been given the undeserved gift of Grace through Jesus.

Ticker

I think the problem we as humans have with these examples of God's forgiveness is we try to catergorize sin. We feel different levels of sin merits different punishment. The fact is all sin is worthy of death. Whether you commit one sin or you committed many grave serious sins the punishment is the same. Just like the Jews - if you kept 1 law and broke 612 or kept 612 and broke 1 it was the same to God, worthy of death. We all are sinners but thank God for the gift of Grace or we would all be condemned before God's perfect holiness.

unstopableravens

ticker:yup good post

Deputy Dog

One poster said of God “ He authorised, rape, murder, genocide, infanticide by bear… He is no better than the these men he declared righteous.”

I believe if they would like to be the Judge of all creation they would need to look at Christ, who as a man did none of those things. God as a man (Jesus) had no sin, so is far better than any other man.

I believe we can’t judge the father as he is not a man, nor subject to the law.

It is humiliating to accept Christ’s righteousness over our own.

cofty

Ticker - you appear to have a very severe case of Stockholm Syndrome.

Your god is a monster by any reasonable standard and yet you feel compelled to engage in the most amazing mental gymnastics to defend her.

It reminds me of the way I used to defend the deficiencies of the Watchtower.

unstopableravens

of course ppl are going to look at themselves as just, but by doing so they dont see the need for christ!and all of us are sinners in need of a savior.

athiest this is for you!

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