athiest this is for you!

by unstopableravens 179 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • unstopableravens

    i glad your enjoying it lol, it seems im always in the middle of a good discussion! this time i really wasnt exspeting it!

  • Ticker

    In response to CantLeave,

    We were not created with original sin but it was a consequence of an action much like the death of David's child. God had to provide redemption because no created being can atone for sin. God is perfect and to allow sin would corrupt that very attribute, no one else could pay that debt but his son Jesus.

    As to why Uzzah died when he touched the Ark of the Covenent is due again to our sin. God can not tolerate sin in his Holy presence. God's presence with Israel dwelt with the Ark of the Covenent. Even the High Priest could only enter once a year into the most Holy place of the Tabernacle except once a year on the day of atonement. Leviticus 16:2. When the Priest entered he would tie a rope around his waist in the event he was unclean in the presence of God and be struck dead. The Philistenes also suffered loss large loss of life due to the Ark being in their possesion. 1 Samuel 5 tells this account. Exodus 3:5 is another example of God's awesome holiness. Even today ourselves just to aproach God in prayer we require the atonement of Jesus as a mediator. We cannot directly contact God in our sinful state or be in his presence with sin.

    Their is another factor to Uzzah's death as well although sin was the root issue. The sons of Kohath were to carry the Ark upon their shoulders(Numbers 7:9) not place it in a cart as something insignificant. God was merciful enough on the Philistenes for doing so out of their lack of ignorance in not knowing better. God did not desire to see Uzzah die but it was a consequence of an action. God's Holiness is not something to be trampled on. Abraham in Genesis 18:27 in meeting with God cried "I am nothing but dust and ashes" Isaiah 6:5 in which the prophet states "Woe to me! I cried. I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips and my eyes have seen the King the Lord Almighty" Peter in Luke 5:8 begged Jesus following his witness of a miracle "Go away from me Lord; I am a sinful man." Revelation 4:8 "Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come" Even the Seraphim who were Holy elect Angels used two wings to cover their face before God's Holy presence. For one who has this awe for the holiness of God it is not hard to accept the account of Uzzah. 1 Peter 1:13-16 Luckily we have a High Priest Christ that has bridged the gap of sin and we can come before God.

    One can take what view they prefer as to the qualities of God but if one looks deeply at the forementioned accounts that were listed and is academically honest by taking it in context, the results were due to consequence of action on account of human imperfection not God.

    As to why God declared them rightous or even ones today after we sin is he is also a loving God that gives the gift of grace. No one can stand before God without blemish but through atonement we are given the chance. Whether we feel it justified to forgive a sinner is not upto our faculty of judgement. We as humans do a poor job of judgement, just look at our court systems for an example.

    You are correct in religion being resposible for bloodshed but remember that is religion. God is not religion. Jesus is my savior not my religion. Organized religion is a whole seperate entity from God. As for declaring Churches being full of pedophiles, I think that retort it is quite stereotypical. While there are obviously pedophiles in Churches I would question whether the incubating factor is their being associated with a Church no more then an atheist pedophile not being associated with one. The problem probably lies outside of both those agency spheres(except in the case of Church Doctrine which would promote pedophilia such as illustrated with the "Shepard your Flock" doctrine of the Watchtower. Then of course understandably a huge responsibility lies with the Church for condoning this environment.). Unless I stand corrected by a census I can't say I know it's a fact.

  • zombie dub
    zombie dub

    Why are you arguing with someone who belives the earth (~4.54 billion years old) is 10,000 years old?!! He/she simply doesn't have an IQ high enough to be worth debating with.

  • designs

    DD- 'people said similar things when they crucified him' what makes you think any Jew said those words 'Let his blood be upon us'.

    The NT, one of the most nefarious propaganda tomes ever written.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    Do the psychopathic murderers, rapists, perverts and scum have any sin?

    No! They have behavioural problems often attribitable to mental illness, upbringing, psychological disorders, stress and other factors such as drugs and alcohol.

    "behavioural problems"/ sin, call it what ever you like. Do you have any? (I know I do) What do you attribute yours to?

    I find mine to be connected to, my trying to live appart from God.

  • unstopableravens
  • zombie dub
    zombie dub

    great example of theist logic

  • xchange

    DD - "behavioural problems"/ sin, call it what ever you like. Do you have any? (I know I do) What do you attribute yours to?

    It's called your brain. I've seen a few and for the life of me I couldn't find any sin in them.

  • unstopableravens

    zombie dub, it sounds familar doesn't? almost like i have heard atheist say something close,

  • zombie dub
    zombie dub
    zombie dub, it sounds familar doesn't? almost like i have heard atheist say something close

    Yup sounds like loads of other nonsensical things theists say in an attempt to use logic.

    Maybe you could make some more billboards?

    "Santa does not belive in adults therefore adults do not exist"

    "Tinkerbell does not believe in people that do not clap their hands and shout 'I believe in fairies!' therefore people with hands who are not clapping and not shouting 'I believe in fairies!' do not exist"

    "Allah does not believe in christians, therefore christians do not exist"

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