God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites - What does the bible REALLY teach?

by irondork 116 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    My views, sir, are no more or less subjective than your own. As for my making a moral judgment, no, I have not. I don’t judge anyone. The whole issue of this thread is whether Old and New Testament scriptures mean what they appear to mean, or should they be taken in a context of heathen worship involving the sacrifice of infants and wanton sex acts

    Well, 'sir', with all due respect, yes, you are making a moral judgement. You are also deciding that scriptures must be interpreted a certain way, which happens to coincide with your personal views on the matter. The context in which you're referring to 'judgement' is a theological context in which 'only God' 'judges' anyone (typically, in a primitive after-life scenario), which relies on the unproven assertion of the existence of a deity, and that it would care about what people do.

    Doesn’t God make subjective moral judgments? Does He not state: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” This passage is in a long list of commandments and penalties. “And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20) Are all of these commandments to be interpreted in light of heathen worship? I don’t think so.

    Does God exist? Unless you can prove this, your question is entirely hypothetical. Do the views of some bronze-age shepherds matter? Why? Do you also keep their dietry laws (Leviticus 11:7, 10-12) and observe the Sabbath? (Leviticus 23:3, Numbers 15:32-36) Do you own slaves? (Exodus 21:20, 21) Do you abhor poly-cotton? (Leviticus 19:19) Ah, what a perfect law.

    How do you know [associating homosexuality with pedophilia is] distorted? What if it’s not distorted?

    Sexual orientation is about attraction to a particular gender, not people of a particular age group. It has been fairly well established that pedophilia (along with rape) is more about control than attraction, and certainly not about mutual attraction.

    And what if the Lord does view homosexuality as an abomination?

    You need to establish that "the Lord" exists before you can ascribe likes or dislikes to it (unless it's just fan fiction), and it's still awfully presumptuous to assert what a deity likes on the basis of some primitive oral traditions.

    Who says [the existence of a deity must be proven first]? We’re talking about scriptural exegesis here, not the existence or nature of God. The title of this thread calls into question how Hebraic scripture is interpreted.

    The scriptures can be interpreted either way. Whether such interpretations matter remains a valid question. You've already established that you have fairly strong feelings about the matter.

    Yes, although sometime I wonder if perpetrate was right. About infertile people who still have sex, no problem. I said the main, or primary, reason for sex was to perpetuate the species. Mechanically, homosexual acts are problematic, as emergency room doctors can attest. Even before AIDS, the health ramifications of homosexuality dwarfed those of heterosexuality.

    I'm sure the infertile couples (as well as any other heterosexual couples using contraception or engaging in acts that can't result in pregnancy) can rest easy knowing they have your blessing. I'm not sure if you're aware, but most things homosexual couples can do can also be done by heterosexual couples, and there's no acts that are restricted to individuals of any particular orientation. I'm not sure that every instance of homosexual 'unions' results in a trip to the emergency room, or that no heterosexual has ever engaged in proclivities that may require such a trip. What's your source for emergency room statistics?

    Hmm...yeah, prominent. It raises the question of why there are no decent gay parades held by other subsets?

    For much the same reason there aren't many heterosexual parades.

    Godwin is an idiot. Do you know anything about the Night of the Long Knives? Despite the persecution of “femme” homosexuals, the Nazi hierarchy, including the “brown shirts,” were riddled with homosexuals. But these were expected to act like tough men in public, not the outrageous effeminate types that were arrested and sent to concentration camps. Behind closed doors, however, things could, and did, get wild. Rumors abounded that Hitler, himself, was a homosexual; however, he was explicit in letting his men know that he had no wish to be embarrassed, and that he wouldn’t stand for it.

    It's not clear why you're saying Godwin is "an idiot". He didn't say anything in particular for or against your argument. So apparently you just didn't bother checking the reference for what the idiom 'Godwin's law' actually means.

    It's little wonder that people acted secretly in the conditions of a dangerous insidious regime, particularly under quite a lot of psychological pressure. Particularly since many in the regime shared the same pathetic stereotypical division as you that 'homosexuals' are "the outrageous effeminate types" who would otherwise have to "act like tough men in public". And 'of course' Hitler 'must' have been 'homosexual'. Just like he 'was an athiest'. And cruel to puppies.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Doesn’t God make subjective moral judgments? Does He not state: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” This passage is in a long list of commandments and penalties. “And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20) Are all of these commandments to be interpreted in light of heathen worship? I don’t think so.

    This is, of course, also an opening for a 'slippery slope argument', relying on the false premise that the juxtaposition of homosexuality with bestiality somehow establishes that both must be either 'good' or 'bad'. Such a conclusion is entirely arbitrary, similar to the flawed comparison with pedophilia.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Mechanically, homosexual acts are problematic, as emergency room doctors can attest. Even before AIDS, the health ramifications of homosexuality dwarfed those of heterosexuality.

    Mechanically, childbirth is also 'problematic'. Before modern medical procedures—in addition to many other possible complications—about 1.5% resulted in death (of the mother).

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    As for whether homosexuality is an anomaly, again, where’s your proof that it’s not?

    All genetic modifications are anomalous. If there were never any anomalies, there would be no genetic variation ever, so life would never develop beyond basic slime. However, you are making a moral judgement that an anomaly is necessarily a disorder. Any particular variation may be incidental, or advantageous for a particular purpose, or disadvantageous for a particular purpose, but none of these variations is 'unnatural'—or even 'bad'—in any absolute sense. Unlike actual 'disorders' that have an inherent negative impact on an organism, homosexuality does not.

    You are also making moral judgements about 'natural' and 'unnatural', by defining 'natural' as 'good' and 'unnatural' as 'bad'. (In broader terms, anything that happens anywhere, ever is inherently 'natural', but by implication we are really talking here about 'man-made' versus the 'natural world'—though that comparison is also flawed.) These moralistic judgements fall apart when considered logically, because things that are 'natural' (like cyanide or cancer) are not inherently 'good', and things that are 'unnatural' (like neurosurgery or tennis) are not inherently 'bad'.

  • irondork
    irondork

    Cold Steel: Hmm...yeah, prominent. It raises the question of why there are no decent gay parades held by other subsets?

    By this reasoning we would have to question why there are no decentheterosexualparades. I'm guessing the vast majority of gays see no point in a sexually oriented parade.

    It's like trying to reason with a... judicial committee.

  • mP
    mP

    IronDork:

    In the video, Mr. Piper made the comment that God created male and female. THAT is the sexuality he created and any variation on that is a deviation from what is normal.

    On the surface, that sounds like a sound argument. I hope to have some time this evening to sit down and respond to it.

    mP:

    So why do so many of the heroes and major characters in the Bible screw their sisters ? Abraham, Adam, even Isaac married a first cousin.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    In the video, Mr. Piper made the comment that God created male and female. THAT is the sexuality he created and any variation on that is a deviation from what is normal.

    Male and female are genders, not sexual orientations. There is no evidence that a god exists, and even most theologians acknowledge that the story about Adam and Eve isn't real. But assuming for a moment that it happened, homosexuals don't deviate from being male or female anyway. (Unless we're broadening the scope to transgendered people as well, which is quite a different issue altogether, and people who choose to undergo sexual re-assignment also vary regarding to which gender they're attracted as separate to their own gender role self-identification.) Further, the claim that any variation from how 'Adam and Eve' were 'created' is necessarily a deviation from normality means that anyone whose hair or eyes or skin (which almost certainly wasn't Caucasian) are not the same colour (or any other genetic trait) as that of 'Adam and Eve' is also 'abnormal'.

  • unstopableravens
    unstopableravens

    jeffro really hair color? genesis 2:22-24 man will leave his mother and father,not mommy and momy and will stick to his wife,not stick to his husband,this being said before there were other humans,so we see from the start what familys were to be ,not same sex

  • irondork
    irondork

    Cold Steel: Mechanically, homosexual acts are problematic, as emergency room doctors can attest. Even before AIDS, the health ramifications of homosexuality dwarfed those of heterosexuality.

    "Mechanically problematic" and "health ramifications" are awfully vague statements that allow people's wild imaginations to fill in the blanks, usually in the most slanderous ways possible. Can you source a peer-reviewed publication from a respected health organization or society to back up your statement?

    I've heard some crazy stories too. Sometimes they involve heterosexual sex and sometimes it's something simple like mixing erectile dysfunction meds with blood pressure meds. Bottom line though: hearsay isn't a case report. Your statement carries no more weight than an ER doctor attesting to spouse battering victims going to the ER "proves" that straight spouses are all violent abusers.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    This issue is pretty simple to me.

    Homosexuality is not wrong and most people know that--it's obvious.

    Trying to do elaborate mental/symantic gymnastics to make an ancient book's prohibitions sound like they're not prohibitions--> that's just some need you have inside yourself, perhaps.

    These gymnastics, or what the Bible says/doesn't say, doesn't make homosexuality more or less right. Morality is a totally separate thing from the Bible.

    Look into Humanism and morality. You will understand how morals come from inside ourselves, not outside in some book, especially one that hates who you are.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit