Prophecy -- Can It Have More Than One Fulfillment?

by MDS 46 Replies latest jw friends

MDS

Frenchy:
I notice that you are real quiet when you are shown up.
No,...actually I'm only "real quiet" when someone such as yourself presents "scholarship" faaarrr beneathe the subject matter...
I have difficulty responding to that, per say.
Actually, I would have expected more out of you, an ex-Presiding Overseer...
I would have to search far and wide to find someone, like yourself and your "friends" on this board, that would honestly, say they truly believe verses 6 thru 9 of Isaiah 11th chapter, have ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED...say since 600 BCE, as you have stated.
Or, maybe you didn't say that...only "Wendy." Okay, let's find out.
Now, let's make sure, we both understand each other.
Now, as you know, the WTS says those particular verses in question, have a "spiritual" meaning for us today, fulfillment found within the christian congregation, with the "change" in personalities in some of the brotherhood, making for a "spiritual paradise," a very peaceful condition within the congregation today. This is what they teach. A spiritual fulfillment of these verses.
They also teach that these very verses will be fulfilled LITERALLY, within the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ, as most people feel... when the "animal kingdom" will be at complete peace, as when Adam was on earth, in the paradise of God. Thus, the setting for these verses are an "end-time" prophecy..."eschatalogical" passage...a Messianic passage.
A great host of Bible scholars and religionists agree with that viewpoint, and hold faith in its future fulfillment.
Now, did I understand you to insinuate differently...like something happening around 600 bce?
So there will be no mistake made in our "positions" here, where we stand, ... will you please state for the record, how you see the fulfillment of these words of Isaiah, as stated below.
ISAIAH 11:6-9
6]"And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all togher, and a mere little boy will be leader over them. [7]And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. [8]And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. [9]They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea."
In your opinion, did this occur in 600 BCE also, as you have already said verse 11 of this chapter does?
I know "wendy" responded, but I want to make clear, exactly where you stand? ... before I tell you what I have to say to you, specifically.
MDS
"...Jehovah, who has put faith in the THING HEARD (the "REPORT") by us?[/i] -- Isaiah 53:1; John 12:38 NWT Ref. Bi fnt
Edited by - MDS on 1 February 2001 5:24:53
MDS

WHEN CAN PROPHECY BE FULLY UNDERSTOOD -- BIBLICALLY SPEAKING?
This comment was made previously on the subject of understanding prophecy:
"...Here is a very important rule: Prophecy is never truly understood until AFTER it has been fulfilled
. The attempts by the WTBS and others should have demonstrated that to you by now..."
Actually, the WTS is quite familiar with this statement, and have repeated it many, many times in their publications. For example, I recall in the publication " Faith On the March," by A.H Macmillan (personally endorsed by then President N. Knorr), Macmillan made the remark that "understanding of prophecies could only occur either during or after the actual fulfillment." That was his position, as I recall. (Of course, if someone has access to the publication, he can verify.) Then too, the WTS also, feels the same way.
This position, yes, has been stated in the WTS publications, too, from time to time. So then, this is nothing new to the WTS at all. This viewpoint, has been the prevailing viewpoint, consistent with the understanding of prophecy to the WTS and how they think we can today, best understand prophecy. Actually, when one thinks about it, yes, this thinking helps them, in the long run of things.
For example, when they, the WTS "fails," in a particular understanding of prophecy, they have to make an "adjustment" in thinking -- well, using the above self-imposed "rule," they can now "change" their thoughts about the fulfillments of a prophecy, EVEN AFTER they feel the prophecy has been fulfilled...years later.
For instance, ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses: "Who is the King of the North," ... is it Russia, Communist Bloc of nations, or whom?
See what "answer" you get. Nothing... they don't know.
What's more, it may be years, years and years, before they WTS discloses with any finality, the identity of this particular "King." Years later. All of the "activity" of the mysterious "king," as Daniel 11th chapter predicts for our day. Even though, JWs know the WTS has in the past, speculated about the "Communist Bloc of nations," in numerous publications for many years while discussing the prophetic book of Daniel. In fact, they spoke with such certainty, and later, in the 1980's, backed up, admitted doubt, admitted uncertainty, and adroitly recanted with such savvy, that many JWs "stumbled" over this point, many long time brothers.
Now, that's explaining prophecy as they do today, AFTER supposedly it has been fulfilled, and still, the WTS doesn't know.
However, is this the way we should understand prophecy?
That is this, unscriptural self-imposed "RULE," that prophecy cannot not be understood until AFTER it has been fulfilled? Is this the correct viewpoint of the matter?
No. This viewpoint is neither true from a Biblical point of view, neither is true,even from a Practical, Common Sense point of view. Why?
This is because, Mankind, on their own, can never, ever UNDERSTAND anything from God, Jehovah, Prophecy, even scripture itself, until JEHOVAH ALLOWS THEM TO. That just a fact.
Even if we are talking "prophecy," "sacred secrets," or "Holy Scripture" itself, still, God reveals it, true understanding of it, as Matthew 13:11 Reveals. If He doesn't, well, the prophecy just sits there... year after year, until God makes a move. God must move first, before anyone understands anything about His Word. A fact.
So, God, reveals it...HE must do this. Actually as stated above, a "prophecy," can BE FULFILLED, can have been fulfilled, for hundreds and hundreds, yes, thousands of years, but still, because it is not REVEALED to man, mankind ... still, will not be able to understand it. A Prophecy Fulfilled, but "UNREVEALED," is what it is.
So, it doesn't matter, WHEN THE PROPHECY IS FULFILLED, ... mankind stays in the darkness, until is time for Jehovah to REVEAL IT. Makes sense?
Deuteronomy 29:29 says of Him:
"The things concealed belong to Jehovah our God, but the things REVEALED belong to us and to our sons to time indefinite, that we may carry out all the words of this law."
Yes, Jehovah must "reveal" it, for our benefit, first.
Also, Daniel 2:22, 29, 47 says of Him:
"He is REVEALING the deep things and the concealed things, knowing what is in the darkness; and with him the light does dwell ... and the One who is the REVEALER OF SECRETS has made known to you what is to occur. Truly the God of you men is a God of gods and a Lord of Kings and a REVEALER OF SECRETS, because you were able to reveal this secret."
So this the "rule," one needs to follow. And it is very scriptural too.
Case in point:
Earlier we mentioned, an interesting point. Our English Word "congregation," is drawn from the Greek word "Ek-kle-sia" which is derived by combining two different two Greek words together -- "ek," meaning "out," and "Kaleo" meaning "call."...Hence "called out..." -- See Insight on The Scriptures pages 496 -- Volume I.
So the English word "congregation" literally means to be "called out..."
RECAP ON FULFILLMENT -- HOSEA 11:1:
Thus, on this scriptural basis, we can properly say, with the creation and establishment of the, Newly Anointed, First Century "Christian Congregation" at Pentecost, Hosea 11:1 was indeed FULFILLED AGAIN. The actual fulfillment being God's innovative creation of a spiritual "Son"-Nation ... making it a "called out" or "congregation" [Ek-klesia] of people, and giving it full status of being a spiritual "Son," or "Nation," which can now escape from wicked "Egypt," or "Jerusalem" of the first century, with Jehovah's blessings.
Think about it.
Yes, ancient "Israel," was replaced by "Spiritual Israel," in fulfillment of Matt. 21:43. So, the "Sonship" of Ancient Israel, was then, transferred, with the New Covenant arrangement, the new contractual agreement between God and His new "son"-nation, that is to spiritual Israel, the christian congregation...the New spiritual "Son" of God, who was now "called out of" spiritual "Egypt" the city and worship of the City of Jerusalem...the place the "Lord was impaled." -- Rev. 11:8
Now, this particular fulfillment of Hosea 11:1, has occurred, was fulfilled, close to 2,000 years ago, and still, mankind knows NOTHING ABOUT IT...even till this day. And there is more too.
How Can One Understand Prophecy today...Jehovah Reveals How
Two (2) Scriptures...Two (2) ways...
You are either a (1) "prophet" yourself, or (2) in the "company of one," yes, "listening", paying heed to a "prophet." One or the other. -- Isaiah 49:1
Now, we will provide the real scriptural proof below, 2 main scriptures:
Scripture #1 -- Amos 3:7 -- "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter [secret matters fnt NWT REf Bi.] to his servants the prophets."
This means, Jehovah will "reveal" these "confidential" or "secret" matters to His "Prophets," BEFORE THEY OCCUR.
That is before they occur...
So, then Jesus could "interpret" the prophecies, AHEAD OF TIME, and WARN THE PEOPLE...make sense? Yes, we must agree with this.
What good, would it do, to only "understand," God's Prophetic Word, AFTER it has been fulfilled, AFTER the denunciation, the calamity has passed. Who wants that to happen to them?
No, but you want to heed the warning, BEFORE calamity comes, and experience "salvation," ... be saved. That's what we want.
So, then, we must heed the words of the Prophet, BEFORE the calamity actually comes, less the words of the prophecy come true up us!
The words of Acts 13:40, 41 ring clear:
"Therefore see to it that what is said in the Prophets does not come upon you, Behold it, you scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in your days, a work that you will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to you in detail."
We must heed the word, the Prophetic Word of God, BEFORE, calamity comes!
Luke 24:27 says of Jesus and his "role" as interpreter of prophecy:
"And commencing at Moses and ALL THE PROPHETS he INTERPRETED to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures."
Christ, INTERPRETED the scriptures, to his disciples...BEFORE THEY WERE FULFILLED, BEFORE THINGS HAPPENED, and they listened.
Which now brings us to the 2nd key Scripture up for discussion.
Scriptures #2 -- Jeremiah 23:18, 22 which says:
"For who has stood in the intimate group of Jehovah that he might see and hear his word? Who has given attention to his word that he might hear it? ... But if they had stood in my intimate group, they they would have made my people hear my own words, and they would have caused them to turn back from their bad way and from the badness of their dealings." -- Jeremiah 23:18, 22
KEY POINT: If one wants to understand "prophecy," then, one would need to place himself, in the company of Jehovah's Intimate Group, His "prophets." This is the only way to benefit from the "interpretations of prophecy," thus gain the needed information, necessary information from God, to survive God's Day of Calamity, coming upon Modern-day "Israel," of our day, Jehovah's Witnesses. Else, he pay the consequences of his ignoring God's Messenger. -- John 15:22; Luke 10:16
As clearly stated above, the whole purpose of Jehovah revealing His Prophetic Will for mankind, is for them to repent! Yes, as the verse says to Israel, "to turn them back from their bad way and from the badness of their dealings."
So, then, the messenger, the prophet, and his message, combine for a purpose...a purpose... Yes, to avert danger and destruction for God's People. To cause people to "repent," as Jesus said in his ministry.
What good, would it do, I ask you, to deliver and interpret this message, this All-important, special message from God, AFTER, now that's AFTER DESTRUCTION HAS BEEN WROUGHT UPON GOD'S PEOPLE... what good would that do?
It would do no good, because the people would be dead by then! Any fool can see that...
And we would be a "fool," then, to believe such "nonsensicalness", adsurdity, as this. Yes, for this is what Satan the Devil WANTS you to believe ... that prophecy is only understood, AFTER it has been fulfilled... that would be, Satanic, Devilish, Nefarious, Cunning in wickedness!
Such a Satanic "rule," would harm many. God does not want that.
So, listen to prophecy, and listen to "interpretation" too of prophecy, pay heed, as you should. Listen to it BEFORE it occurs. This is the will of God. -- Isaiah 48:18, 19
2 Peter 1:19 says:
"Consequently we have the Prophetic Word made more sure; and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place until day dawns and a daystar rises, in your hearts."
MDS
"...Jehovah, who has put faith in the THING HEARD (the "REPORT") by us?[/i] -- Isaiah 53:1; John 12:38 NWT Ref. Bi fnt[/b]
Edited by - MDS on 1 February 2001 23:9:17
mommy

MDS,
I responded to you 2 days ago. Since then I no longer feel the need to put you in your place. I have proven my point, and denounced you.
If you would like to talk about anything other than bible phrochecy or doctrine, which we obviously don't agree on, I would be happy too.
So MDS what do you like to do for fun? Are you married or have children? This is subject matter that is personal I understand, but alot of people on this board actually talk about stuff like that.
I myself have a wonderful day planned. See I am going on a day trip. My husband and I are escaping! Yes we will be leaving the house for a whole day! I am very excited. It is nice to leave the day in and day out of everyday life, and just let your mind relax.
If you prefer we can switch this to another forum, as not to disturb the post you have started. Have a wonderful day:)
Wendy
Frenchy

MDS:
Oh, so you do respond...but not with clear answers to questions but with more rhetoric and soap box theatrics. So before I make my stand clear on my view of Isaiah 11: 6-9 how about making your stand clear on certain questions asked of you. Let's cultivate the crop we have sown before we plow new ground. Fair enough?
Let's see I'll just recap the questions I asked and you can refer back to my post if you need more clarification of the question:
1: How would understanding a specific Prophecy limit God?
2: I don't believe that anyone is insisting upon ONE fulfillment as you state here. (That means please show where someone has insisted on this.)
3: And if by saying that ‘None of God's creation... can be really, "measured,", including prophecy', you are meaning that the creation cannot be fully understood then I agree and I would point out that this is also true of prophecy which means that to stand up and presume to explain something that is admittedly not understood is folly. (That means justify your explanation of prophecy after you have said that that it cannot be ‘measured')
4: "The amount of fulfillment then, may just depend upon how well, we know God, His purposes and written word more than anything else." How so? (Please explain)
5: Why would God necessarily limit fulfillment of his prophecies based on how much we know or understand about him?
6: Who is ‘we'?
7: Will the prophecies be limited based on YOUR knowledge or MINE?
8: "Actually, in the mind of God, he delivers his "Son," many times from "Egypt," or what is "Egypt," in His mind." (Your statement.) My question: Are you saying that YOU have ‘come to know Jehovah's mind.'?
9: You quoted Paul's words to the Romans (concerning Jehovah's mind) earlier and said, in connection with this: "Man cannot do this...though he may try." So please tell us why it is that you are trying?
-------
So, God, reveals it...
That's really what this is all about isn't it? You are getting revelations from God. You're something special. God has given you the authority and understanding through divine revelations and has charged you with the responsibility of dispensing this ‘knowledge' to the unprivileged masses. Of course if I have some of this wrong please feel free to ‘correct' me.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
MDS

Hi Wendy,
Yes, if we must disagree, then, we can do this, agreeably.
My family life is a happy one. Music is a special interest of music. I also like to travel, and meet new people, many of our brothers, from different part of the earth.
Travelling affords one the opportunity to "search out" the wonders of Jehovah's Creative Words, the Creation itself, thru-out the earth. Marvelous! Always.
These are my "personal interests."
Take Care, and have a safe and enjoyable trip!
MDS
MDS

Frenchy:
I think we need to get one thing straight.
Whether you respond to me, or not, has no personal bearing upon my ministry. I recall you at one time said that you was going to stop talking to me altogether...remember that?
Remember, you are seeking "information" from me, ... not I of you.
You need not respond or say anything to me...it changes nothing for me. I am doing as Matt. 10:6 says:
"But, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Now, are you "lost," Frenchy?
Are you?
I don't think you feel that you are...
So then, in that case, let's do as Jesus said:
"...Those who are healthy do not need a physician, but those who are ailing do. I have come to call, NOT RIGHTEOUS PERSONS, but sinner to repentance."
That's how I see it. I'm not interested in debating you, That's why I didn't reply to you or "wendy" in the first place. That's why I did not say anything to the both of you. I'm not hear to "debate" the Scriptures.
That's because all Dedicated, Baptized Jehovah's Witnesses are in a Covenant Relationship with Jehovah God, whether they like the thought or not. And "what we vow to God," we are surely "going to pay," to Him one way or the other. -- Eccl. 5:4-7
Proverbs 9:7-9 tells us, tells me what sought of people I am really looking for those to avoid. Avoid "Ridiculers," "ridiculers" of God's Word, His prophetic Word. "Avoid them," as Romans 16:17 clearly admonishes us. Stay away from "brothers" like that.
But, as for the "Wise," yes people who are willing to Listen and "learn," learn what God has "revealed," SPEND TIME ON THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE...spend time only on these types of people. I spend time on these types of people, and only these types. I have no time for the otherwise, who are already baptized and dedicated to God. That's my position on the matter. That's my personal rule, that I follow.
Sooooo, I'm not interested in talking to one who has the "answers" already, or that "knows" everything already ... but who is actually someone pretending to know, but is totally ignorant of Jehovah's Purposes, completely, and yet, still arrogantly so... and that is you.
So, I am not searching for your type, at all. And certainly do not wish to discuss "deep" spiritual matters with someone like you...a "ridiculer" of God's Prophetic Word. -- Proverbs 9:7-9
No more than Jesus would search out the Pharisees, to engage them in conversation... Jesus wasn't interested.
He said:
"Let them be...blind guides are what they are..."
Jesus simply wasn't interested in discussing anything with them, at all. A Fact.
Frenchy, you say you have "questions." But, you are clearly not sincere, in your questions at all, but wish to "catch something from my mouth," as the Pharisees tried to do to Jesus. Your wickedness is clear.
My viewpoint of you is simply stated in the writings of Paul:
"These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some...Now in the way that Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so these also go on resisting the truth, men completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. Nevertheless, they will make no further progress for their madness will be very plain to all, even as the madness of those two men became." -- 2 Tim. 2:18; 3: 8, 9
That is my viewpoint of you, Frenchy...
Therefore, I will never seek you out for any information. I don't need to talk or communicate with you for any reason. I'm not going to learn anything from an "empty vessel" such as you. That would not be possible. Remember you are writing me, not I writing you and asking you a ton of questions about "Frenchy's so-called Personal Beliefs" and all. I'm not doing that. But, remember you are asking me, my beliefs... a ton of questions too.
That's the order of things...Frenchy.
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 1 February 2001 9:5:23
larc

MDS,
From reading your last post, I get the idea that you only want to communicate with those who believe your conclusions with out question. Most people's minds don't work that way, and if they do have a lack of critical thinking, I think that is very undersirable.
As you are well aware, most people on this forum were sold a bill of goods that proved to be false. As a result, they are not in a hurry to embrace another belief system that is equaly speculative, in there view.
In your last post above, your language shows a lot of anger with all your name calling. Why? Teachers should teach, not insult. Doesn't Isaiah saying something like "come let us reason together"?
trevor

MDS,
I have just read your reply to Frenchy. I was blown away by your arrogance. You have no doubt read my postings in defence of the God of love but have wrongly concluded that I too am a Godless heathen.
You are very fond of quoting chunks of the bible and using it as a weapon to defend your own ego. Do you ever read the scriptures that say 'Judge not others that you may not be judged yourself' or 'Beware he who thinks he is standing' or 'do not stumble your brother.'
I could go on but as you have explained, you are only interested publishing carefully selected passages that support your own agenda.
'I was an oak, now I'm a willow I can bend.'
trevor
ianao

larc:
From reading your last post, I get the idea that you only want to communicate with those who believe your conclusions with out question.
I think you've nailed it right on the head. I think the "dialog" between Frenchy and MDS just shows MDS' mindset. It kind of reminds me of my boss here at work. He walks around with a coffee mug that reads: "Me boss, you not!"
And with comments such as this:
Frenchy, you say you have "questions." But, you are clearly not sincere, in your questions at all, but wish to "catch something from my mouth," as the Pharisees tried to do to Jesus. Your wickedness is clear.
His posts to Frenchy are a form of damage control to his "disciples". You know, the ones who are asking themselves: "Why won't God's mouthpiece admit that he is such?"
You know as well as I do that this is necessary in order to keep members, especially ones that are not protected from other sources of information. Perhaps he wishes to keep silent blanket statements, and let others draw their own conclusions, so later on when something he said WOULD happen DOESN'T, he can tell them that they came to faulty conclusions themselves.
And with comments by Frenchy such as this:
That's really what this is all about isn't it? You are getting revelations from God. You're something special. God has given you the authority and understanding through divine revelations and has charged you with the responsibility of dispensing this ‘knowledge' to the unprivileged masses.
I think he already knows what the answer to his questions would be, if MDS would answer him. MDS seems reluctant to make this outright statement because he knows the problems that occurred in the past and present with the WTBTS. I really don't blame MDS for not answering the questions, although it is a disservice to Frenchy, who resides on the same DISCUSSION BOARD that he does.
I am intrigued at how spirituality can be toyed around with. Kind of like politics. I agree with Wendy, I think he wants that spiritual "power", the "high". Hence his will to equate "faith" in HIM as a prophet with "faith" in the Bible. That way, his followers will be following God in their eyes, when in actuality they are following another MAN's interpretation of the Bible. This outdoes Fallwell and Koresh. Sheer brilliance. Doublethink at it's finest.
I think the anger that you and I both see in his posts are frustration on his part, the same frustration he showed to me, possibly realizing that some of us here have seen him as the wolf in sheep's clothing that he actually is. This is something I have recently come to accept, as I have seen it done myself in a xtian church.
MDS:
Bravo! Pure genius. The perfect "brain game". I thought you were mentally sick, but you are A GENIUS!
A couple of suggestions though:
#1. I would recommend you get your own website. You can gain many more followers if you post your message for all to see, instead of a discussion forum such as this where wiser people can expose you. I suggest you check out http://www.amazingfacts.com, it's a fascinating site setup in the same guise as the WTBTS's main sight.
#2. Xtian churches use "tithing" as well as offerings in order to gain more money, and they have shown that you can live much happier by taking the money of others, and having your followers feel that they are doing a good Christian service to boot.
#3. When wiser people begin to "debate" with you by asking you to clarify your beliefs, it's not the wisest thing in the world to accuse someone of "debating scripture" when you yourself are using scripture to substantiate your claims. This may be a way of silencing dissenters, but people more versed in these tactics can expose your sidestepping (quite easily IMO) as the use of sound critical thinking skills used to substantiate yourself in scripture become flawed, and you end up looking like a "Holier than Thou" egotistic charleton, instead of Jesus Christ.
Just remember MDS, don't howl at the moon while wearing wool, people will start asking questions.
Edited by - ianao on 1 February 2001 13:31:34
Jr

MDS,

I was trying to think of what is wrong here. These words describe what is happening better than anything I can come up with:
Nevertheless, they will make no further progress for their madness will be very plain to all, even as the madness of those two men became." -- 2 Tim. 2:18; 3: 8, 9
I see the scriptural support here so clearly. It's not that difficult to see what the bible is saying. If anyone else can understand the post of MDS, count yourselves blessed not to be blinded of these things. If you appreciate the bible truths here, you will be amazed at what Jehovah is revealing for our time. Seek and you will find; dig and it will be uncovered. As for the rest, I'm sorry to see JW's showing so lack of faith in God's words. I'm not saying lack in the Society words, but lack in Jehovah's own words, the bible.
Jr
Edited by - Jr on 1 February 2001 14:30:57

Prophecy -- Can It Have More Than One Fulfillment?

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