Prophecy -- Can It Have More Than One Fulfillment?

by MDS 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • MDS
    MDS

    Hi all:

    The following discussion is based upon a question raised by “Larc,” under another thread posted earlier. It was interpreted that I could not answer the question. The question was then, followed up by “Circare” to the effect that I should comment upon it for the benefit of others who may be listening.

    I have decided to respond.

    These are the actual quotes, asked of me.

    ...One minor point. You said that Jehovah could have a prophecy fulfilled many times. Well, yes I supposed he could, but has he? If so, could you find a prophecy in the Bible that has been fulfilled many times and list each of the fulfillments?

    To which, “Circare” made the following observations about the above question that I initially, refused to address for my own reasons.

    ...Larc asked a logical question that deserved an honest answer. I also wanted to know the answer to that question. Larc did not say he did not believe prophecy had merit. Larc did not say he had more faith in science than the Bible. Larc did not say he did not have faith in the bible or in God…MDS why waste time in a diatribe against Larc instead of answering the question he asked. Do you not think the answer could have been faith strengthening? (Note: I did not say ‘faith giving’ but ‘faith strengthening’)

    On the above basis, I have decided to start a new thread on this very subject, since the old thread where this discussion was first brought up, was getting too long for anyone to keep up with.

    My response:

    Hosea 11:1 which says:

    “When Israel was a boy, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.”

    Just that last part, the “out of Egypt I called my son” part.

    How many fulfillments can we realize, by way of exercising faith, up this particular prophecy, I ask?

    How many? One. Or, more than one.

    The Watchtower Society has already pointed to “Two” fulfillments.

    1) Exodus 4:22, 23 says: “And you say to Pharaoh, This is what Jehovah has said: Israel is My Son, my firstborn. And I say to you SEND MY SON away that he may serve me.”

    Israel, the nation as a whole, is spoken of as a “son” to God, who must be sent away from Egypt.

    2) Matthew 2:14,15 which says: “So he got up and took along the young child and its mother by night and withdrew into Egypt I called my son.”

    Jesus, the “Son of God,” called out of “Egypt” as a child. A well-known and accepted fulfillment by many, besides the WTS.

    These are the two fulfillments of the scripture, prophecy the Watchtower Society and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and many others will point to.

    However, could there more?

    What about this one?

    3) Isaiah 11:11 which says: “And it must occur in that day that Jehovah will again offer his hand, A SECOND TIME, to acquire the remnant of his people who will remain over from Assyria AND FROM EGYPT and from pathros and from Cust and from Elam and from Shinar and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.”

    Why does the prophecy say Jehovah offers His Great Hand of deliverance, “a SECOND TIME” that’s a second time, to acquire the remnant of his people “Israel,” from … EGYPT?

    Why?

    Which “Israel,” which “remnant of Israel,” then, are wetalking about here?

    Is there ANOTHER, modern-day “Israel,” possibly in slavery, captivity to another modern-day “EGYPT” of our times – Jehovah God, again, acts as the Great Deliverer?

    Go, Jehovah, offers His Hand a “second time” … to deliver “Israel,” His “Son,” the “remnant,” from OPPRESSIVE EGYPT, the Bible says.

    Is this possible?

    Could there be yet, another fulfillment AGAIN, of the Grand prophecy of Hosea 11:1, all over again?

    How many escapes from “Egypt” will God’s People, “Israel,” actually have?

    Further, after this even, could there be even more fulfillments of that particular prophecy from Hosea 11:1?

    Could there be more?

    Any comments...

    MDS

    "...Jehovah, who has put faith in the THING HEARD (the "REPORT") by us?[/i] -- Isaiah 53:1; John 12:38 NWT Ref. Bi fnt

    Edited by - MDS on 31 January 2001 19:53:12

  • mommy
    mommy

    Hey mds okay here goes....I did research this with the bible only, and in NO way am saying I am an expert at it. This is just MY interpratation of this scripture
    Hosea 1:1 The word of the Lord came unto Hosea after Isreal left Egypt right?
    Look at the first part of Hosea 11:1 When Isreal was a child..... To me this sounds like a retelling of a story, not a phrophecy.
    Exodus 4:22,23 This seems to me not to be a phrophecy either, but a request or demand.
    Mathew 2:14,15 Joseph was told to go into Egypt with Jesus who is God's Son, and not to leave until Herrod was dead. When he died God's Son was able to leave Egypt.
    So my understanding of Hosea 11:1 Is the retelling of a story and when in Matthew Jesus literally left Egypt others construed that the words spoken by Hosea were phrophetic fulfillment.
    Words of the prophets are a strange, and hard to understand. I admit I do not understand them. But I read these verses and this is my interpratation. Everyone has got one you know!
    wendy

  • larc
    larc

    mommie,

    You don't want to confuse MDS with facts. He's already made up his mind!

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    MDS:
    Isaiah prophesied a great deal about both the destruction of Jerusalem and its restoration. So in answer to your question:

    Why does the prophecy say, Jehovah offers his Great Hand of deliverance, "a SECOND TIME," that's a second time, to acquire the remnant of his people "Israel," from ... EGYPT?
    Why?
    Which "Israel," which "remnant of Israel," then, are we talking abou here?

    Consider the following: Isa 10: 22- For although your people, O Israel, would prove to be like the grains of sand of the sea, a mere remnant among them will return. –NWT From where would this remnant (of dispersed ones as the result of the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon) come from once the repatriation of the land began? The answer: Isa 11:11,12 - And it must occur in that day that Jehovah will again offer his hand, a second time, to acquire the remnant of his people who will remain over from As·syr'i·a and from Egypt and from Path'ros and from Cush and from E'lam and from Shi'nar and from Ha'math and from the islands of the sea. And he will certainly raise up a signal for the nations and gather the dispersed ones of Israel; and the scattered ones of Judah he will collect together from the four extremities of the earth.–NWT Jehovah is once again calling his people out of Egypt (as well as all the other places to which they have been dispersed/scattered). This fulfillment took place circa 600 BCE.
    I believe that answers your question. That's the second time. Any other time would be beyond the scope of this scripture since, as you have pointed out, it is speaking of the second time.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    I have to say, I read it just about exactly the way mommy did.

    If someone wants to indicate that their words will have a future meaning, well, that is not hard to do. All you have to do is say so.

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    It's not so much a question of how many times a prophecy can be fullfilled as much as it is a question of how many ways do you want to apply it?
    The fathers of the Catholic Church may well have applied this to themselves as having been drawn out of the world.
    Martin Luther may well have applied it to himself and his movement. He could very well have seen the Protestant Reformation as God calling the faithful remnant out of Egypt (Catholocism).
    Russell (and/or his successors) may have applied it to the Bible Students that were plucked out of the world.
    Splinter groups emerging from the WTBS may view themselves in such a light and apply that to themselves as well.
    Or some might simply apply this on a personal level and see themselves as having been called forth from the figurative land of Egypt and now are reveling in the light of being a son/daughter of God regardless of what faith they now belong to.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • bjc2012
    bjc2012

    Frenchy,

    You might want to consider what Jehovah said to the Israelites who were determined to go to Egypt after Gedaliah was killed. Jeremiah tells us in chapter 42 that anyone going down to Egypt would positively not return to the land of Judah. Verses 15 and 16 say in part: "...This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel has said: "If you yourselves positively set your faces to enter into Egypt and you actually enter in to reside there as aliens, it must also occur that the very sword of which you are afraid will there catch up with you in the land of Egypt, and the very famine at which you are in a fright will there closely follow after you to Egypt; and there is where you will die." Verse 17 says: "And it will come about that all the men that have set their faces to enter into Egypt to reside there as aliens will be the ones to die by the sword, by the famine and by the persilence; and they will not come to have a survivor or an escapee, because of the calamity that I am bringing in upon them." The latter part of verse 18 says: "...you will certainly become a curse and an object of astonishment and a malediction and a reproach, and you will no more see this place."

    If Jehovah carried out His word and He always does, there was no Israelite left in Egypt to return when they were released from Babylon.

    bjc

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    I was hoping MDS would answer but nonetheless:

    If Jehovah carried out His word and He always does, there was no Israelite left in Egypt to return when they were released from Babylon.


    Consider these possibilites: First of all, the case of Jonah. He proclaimed that Jehovah would overthrow the city. Jonah's message was NOT if you don't repent He will destroy you but rather He WILL destroy you. A fact borne out by Jonah's dismay at Jehovah's not following through with the threat. In this case circumstances changed and Jehovah's explicit word to Jonah did not occur. Please note that I am not saying that Jehovah lied here but the prophecy did not happen. So that sort of dispels your theory that you noted above that I took the liberty of emboldening. (I would be happy to discuss this particular incident if you so choose) Time and again a proclamation made by Jehovah is reversed because of a subsequent action or reaction by the condemned changes the circumstances.
    Another point: When the Israelites rebelled in the wilderness Jehovah swore that the rebels would not enter into the promised land. ...But their decendants did and those under age did. How do we know that this is not a similar incident? How do we know that the children of the rebels (seventy years is a long time) would not be called back in the same manner that the children of the rebels in the wilderness were allowed into the promised land?
    Another point: There is also reason to believe that there were Jews already dwelling in that area. Jews that had not fled in direct disobedience to Jehovah's command and subsequently were not under condemnation. These Jews already living in that area would not come under Jeremiah's condemnation inasmuch as they had not disobeyed those divine instructions. They were already living there. Those could be the ones called back to help restore Judah.
    I'm sure there are other possibilities as well. I just happened to think of those. Any one of which would be sufficient to satisfy the passage in Jeremiah and allow for those Jews in Egypt to be recalled to Judah during the return of the Jews.
    Next question.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • circare
    circare

    MDS I do thank you for responding and for the information provided.

    JW's are taught the concept of prophecy having a minor and major fulfilment. What basis would there be for considering a third or further fulfilment?

  • bjc2012
    bjc2012

    Frenchy,

    Before you close this subject, I want to make one more statement about Isaiah 11:11.

    The statement is from the Expositor's Bible Commentary, Volume 6, commentary on the book of Isaiah, page 90: "The eschatological phrase "in that day" occurring in both verses, (verses 10 and 11)relates this messianic teaching to the end times. Like most of the OT writers, Isaiah had a lively sense of the special importance of the Exodus from Egypt, when God had stretched out his hand to deliver his people. Isaiah looked forward to a time that will see an event comparable with it in redemptive significance (V.11) This will contrast with the Exodus, for those who return will be the remnant of a larger people, while it was the greatly enlarged family of Jacob that left Egypt under Moses. The event will also differ because this time the prople will not move together as a body from one point of departure but will come together from many lands and various points of the compass. Instead of going forth under a great leader they will come together seeking a greater leader still."

    Apparently there are others who believs this prophesy has some modern-day fulfillment.

    bjc

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