Prophecy -- Can It Have More Than One Fulfillment?

by MDS 46 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  MDS

  Hello Frenchy:

  To do this discussion "justice," I think it would be best, to quote the ENTIRE CONTEXT of the verses in question, actually the entire 11th chapter of Isaiah, so that we can properly ascertain or reach a reasonable, rational, faith-strengthening conclusion on the matter. A conclusion, that also would harmonize with other scriptural thoughts, found in the God's Prophetic Word, showing the many consistencies of the Inspired Word of God through out. I feel, this would be most pleasing to Jehovah. I hope you do too.

  Isaiah 11th chapter:

  "[1]And there must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jesse; and out of his roots a sprout will be fruitful. [2]And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down, the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and of mightiness, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah; [3]and there will be enjoyment by him in the fear of Jehovah. And he will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. [4]And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones, and with uprightness he must given reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth. And he must strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the spirit of his lips he will put the wicked on to death. [5]And righteousness must prove to be the belt of his hips, and faithfulness the belt of his loins.

  [6]"And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all togher, and a mere little boy will be leader over them. [7]And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. [8]And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. [9]They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea."

  [10]"And it must occur IN THAT DAY that there will be the root of Jesse that will be standing up as a signal for the peoples. To him even the nations will turn inquiringly, and his resting-place must become glorious."

  [11]"And it must occur IN THAT DAY that Jehovah will again offer his hand, A SECOND TIME, to acquire the remnant of his people who will remain over from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cust and from Elam and from Shinar and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. [12]And he will certainly raise up a signal for the nations and gather the dispersed ones of Israel; and the scattered ones of Judah he will collect together from the four extremities of the earth."

  [13]"And the jealousy of Ephraim must depart, and even those showing hostility to Judah will be cut off. Ephraim itself will not be jealous of Judah nor will Judah show hostility toward Ephraim. [14]And they must fly at the shoulder of the Philistines to the west; together they will plunder the sons of the East. Edom and Moab will be those upon whom they will thrust out their hand, and the sons of Ammon will be their subjects. [15]And Jehovah will certainly cut off the tongue of the Egyptian sea, and wave his hand at the River in the glow of his spirit. And he must strike it in its seven torrents, and he will actually cause people to walk in their sandals. [16]And there must come to be a highway out of Assyria for the remnant of his people who will remain over, just as there came to be one for Israel in the day of his coming up out of the land of Egypt."

  Frenchy, after reading the above, does not this entire chapter seem to you, as it does to many, including Bible Scholars, "Messianic," an "eschatological passage," a glorious "end-time" prophecy?

  A simple question...a simple answer.

  MDS
• 

  mommy

  MDS,
  NO! Do you want me to explain?
  wendy
• 

  MDS

  Hi "Circare":

  MDS I do thank you for responding and for the information provided...JW's are taught the concept of prophecy having a minor and major fulfilment. What basis would there be for considering a third or further fulfilment?

  The question you ask is a most intriguing one. I thank you for asking such a question, which allows me opportunity to respond.

  First I want to say, the WTS, does not have the scope of matters...not the full scope of prophecy.

  I do not believe this.

  Remember this statement, "the mind of Jehovah, who can really know it?"

  Prophecy is God's Mind in action. His ability to know things, far beyond anything that man can conjure up or conceive. God's Prophecy. So...how can we, puny humans, limit it...limit His Prophetic Word... How can we do this?

  None of God's creation, his creative works, can be really, "measured," limited by mere man? None of them. Prophecy is no different. Prophecy, and fulfillments thereof, cannot be held to the simple-minded constraints of man, who insist upon ONE FULFILLMENT of His glorious Word -- The fulfillment that he can only see at the moment.

  This is not possible.

  As Romans 11:33, 34 aptly says of Him.

  "O the depth of God's riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and past tracing out his ways are! For who has come to know JEHOVAH'S MIND, or who has become his counselor?"

  If one can become an authority on prophecy, able to limit Jehovah, put limits upon the "Mind" of Jehovah...than one could LIMIT HIS INTELLIGENCE, HIS WISDOM, yes, put limits upon HIS UNFAILING WORD, and all of its meanings for us today.

  Man cannot do this...though he may try.

  God is deep. He must be, very deep. His Prophetic Word, then, reflects that. Yes, rightly so.

  So, prophecy, can have multiple fulfillments. They can. The amount of fulfillments then, may just depend upon how well, we know God, His purposes and written word more than anything else.

  Therefore, most of us, are ill-equipped, lacking in the most important ingredient of faith, sad to say, to deal with such a complicated and delicate subject as this. To speak authoritatively, on how many fulfillments can be derived from one prophecy ... attempted by some who do not even believe in the Bible as God's Word. Those in this predictament, cannot be in any way fashion or form, considered "fully equipped" and "completely competent" to answer such a question of real, spiritual depth. "Deeper things of God," matters that deal with the Great, Hidden [from man] "Intelligence" of Almighty God, as revealed in His Prophetic Word. -- 2 Timothy 3:17; 1 Cor. 2:10

  THE PROPHECY: "...OUT OF EGYPT, I CALLED MY SON" -- HOSEA 11:1

  Having said that, Let's continue, with what we are talking about..."Israel," as a "son," coming out of "Egypt."

  Actually, in the mind of God, he delivers his "Son," many times from "Egypt," or what is "Egypt," in His mind.

  How can we know this? God's Word, reveals it, to us. That's how.

  First, we must determine, what could be the "Son?"

  And then, "Egypt," what is it, to God...what could it be?

  Again, the Word of God, is deep, too deep for many, who try to limit His Greatness, His Insight into matters...the future, from His vantage point, as revealed by way of prophecy. That's what we are talking about here.

  Exodus 4:22, 23 says:

  "And you must say to Pharaoh, This is what Jehovah has said: Israel is MY SON, my first born. And I say to you: Send MY SON away that he may serve me."

  So, the nation of "Israel," is viewed by God, as a "son" to Him. Let's keep this in mind.

  Now, since Isaiah 11th chapter is prophetic of the future, (most would agree, after reading the chapter), and with verse 11 mentioning that God would "for the second time" deliver "Israel" from "Egypt," thus, makes for I believe, a most unique fulfillment of Hosea 11:1 "...Out of Egypt I called my Son", in our present day and time.

  Now, we know that the particular prophecy was fulfilled with Matt. 2:14, 15 showing the baby Jesus, was as a "son," "called out of Egypt," literally. Clearly one fulfillment. The obvious one practically everyone accepts who is a believer.

  Which forces us to say, the realization of Isaiah 11:11, then must be ANOTHER FULFILLMENT of the prophetic words Hosea 11:1, but only during the glorious "end-time", Messianic Age of our day.

  But, before this, we have possibly, yet another fulfillment we haven't discussed, even during Jesus' day and the first century. One a little bit "closer to home," than we might expect.

  What is it?

  Well, at Revelation 11:8 we read:

  "And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and EGYPT, where their Lord was also impaled."

  Ancient "Jerusalem," first century "Jerusalem," was the city most responsible for "impaling" the Lord Jesus. No problem identifying that ancient city of long ago. However, too, this verse also shows, "Jerusalem," a modern-day "Jerusalem," to exist in a very CORRUPT state, in our "last days." A Very Corrupt "city" indeed.

  The verse above reveals that this is where the "Two Witnesses" of God, are "killed" and laid out on the "broadway" of this city, "Jerusalem," ... why?

  Let's consider something, God said about "Jerusalem," the identity of the City.

  "For, look! it is upon the city upon which MY NAME IS CALLED that I am starting off in bringing calamity..." -- Jeremiah 25:29

  Yes, the city that is upon which "MY NAME IS CALLED" is Jerusalem. The "city" that represents God's Name...Jerusalem. Calamity must "start" there.

  God's Name People, modern-day "Israel," clearly are the first to come under "judgment" from God, Jehovah. -- Jer. 25:29; 1 Peter 4:17; Rev. 11:1

  God's Name People, and God's Name City, are to be identified with God's Name...a most important point. This will help us later, to identify modern-day "Israel", God's Name People of our day, and the "agency," which holds them in utter slavery, captivity, in abject tyranny and oppression, modern-day "Egypt."

  But, going back to Jesus' day, we can begin to realize, that to God, this city, wicked Jerusalem, then IS "Egypt", yes "Egypt," to Almighty Jehovah God. To Him it is so. It is the place the Lord was "impaled," was it not?

  So, to God, it is "Egypt."

  Also, to God, this city is also the "Great City." Now, what is the "Great City." Well, if you read,

  Revelation 17:18 - "And the woman [Babylon the Great]...means the Great City..."

  Revelation 16:19 - "And the Great City split into three parts,...and Babylon The Great was remembered in the sight of God... "

  Also, Revelation 18:10, 16, 18, 19, and 21 - all show the "Great City," to be none other that "Babylon the Great," the one imfamous we remember, for holding God's people in Captivity under King Nebuchadnezzar many years ago.

  So, "Jerusalem," the wicked city identified with God's Name, then is viewed by God as being, the "Great City," too...yes Babylon the Great. Jerusalem to God, is also, Babylon The Great too. So, Jerusalem is "Babylon the Great, and also "Egypt," both places that were infamous for holding "Israel," God's "Son," in Captivity and oppressive slavery...spiritually speaking. A symbolic "Egypt," a symbolic "Great City," a modern-day Egypt, and Babylon the Great, this symbolic "Jerusalem."

  Now, we can understand better why...Isaiah 11:11, mentioned above, says the Grand Deliverance, is from BOTH places, "Shinar" [Babylon], and "Egypt,"...yes both places.

  HOSEA 11:1 -- YET ANOTHER FULFILLMENT...

  Now, Jesus was "impaled," at "Jerusalem." Jerusalem is Egypt, to God. Paul said that Jesus "left the encampment" of Jerusalem, to establish the Christian congregation...a "new Jerusalem," another city for God's Name. Hebrews 13:13, 14 says:

  "Let us, then, go forth to him [Jesus] outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, for we do not have here a city [Jerusalem] that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come."

  Clearly, christians were "called out" of Jerusalem, "Egypt," yes, "outside the camp" of wicked Jerusalem, as it were, to serve God. According to the inspired words of Paul, this was so. Therefore, the christian nation, "Spiritual Israel," God's NEW "Son" Nation, the Christian Congregation, then, left "Jerusalem," left "Egypt," yes, followed Jesus, to serve God, and to look forward to being and having a part in a better, righteous "Jerusalem" city.

  Hosea 11:1 -- "...OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."

  The Christian Nation, the newly established Christian Congregation, thus became SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, God's new "anointed" SON. Clearly. Anointed at Pentecost.

  And as a "Son," yes, they were "called out of Egypt" by Jesus himself, the head of the congregation.

  Thus, Hebrews 13:13, 14 shows that God's Newly Formed "Son" nation, spiritual "Israel," the Christian Congregation, then, was "called out of EGYPT," wicked "Jerusalem," to practice pure worship. -- Thus, another unique fulfillment of Hosea 11:1.

  Interesting point, our English Word "congregation," is drawn from the Greek word "Ek-kle-sia" which is derived by combining two different two Greek words together -- "ek," meaning "out," and "Kaleo" meaning "call."...Hence "called out..." -- See Insight on The Scriptures pages 496 -- Volume I.

  So the English word "congregation" literally means to be "called out..."

  RECAP ON FULFILLMENT -- HOSEA 11:1:

  Thus, on this scriptural basis, we can properly say, with the creation and establishment of the, Newly Anointed, First Century "Christian Congregation" at Pentecost, Hosea 11:1 was indeed FULFILLED AGAIN. The actual fulfillment being God's innovative creation of a spiritual "Son"-Nation ... making it a "called out" or "congregation" [Ek-klesia] of people, and giving it full status of being a spiritual "Son," or "Nation," which can now escape from wicked "Egypt," or "Jerusalem" of the first century, with Jehovah's blessings.

  Think about it.

  Yes, ancient "Israel," was replaced by "Spiritual Israel," in fulfillment of Matt. 21:43. So, the "Sonship" of Ancient Israel, was then, transferred, with the New Covenant arrangement, the new contractual agreement between God and His new "son"-nation, that is to spiritual Israel, the christian congregation...the New spiritual "Son" of God, who was now "called out of" spiritual "Egypt" the city and worship of the City of Jerusalem...the place the "Lord was impaled." -- Rev. 11:8

  So, "Circare," with the eye of faith, full faith in God's Prophetic Word, we can realize, how God can fulfill His Prophet Word...giving us even more fulfillments than we may know of as of yet -- Truly using, the one and the same scripture or prophecy.

  To say otherwise, would be trying to "limit" God...to limit His mind. And we simply can't limit the "mind of Jehovah," ... we can't do it.

  And, oh yes, and there could be even more fulfillments than even these. Only Jehovah knows...and those he "reveals His confidential (secret) matters" to...the "prophets." -- See Amos 3:7.

  I hope this helps.

  MDS

  Edited by - MDS on 31 January 2001 16:11:40
• 

  Frenchy

  Apparently there are others who believs this prophesy has some modern-day fulfillment

  
  But that does not make it so now does it? --Just because others choose to make something of it.
  Here is a very important rule: Prophecy is never truly understood until AFTER it has been fulfilled. The attempts by the WTBS and others should have demonstrated that to you by now. You will find yourself 'readjusting' your views as time reveals your misunderstanding...and mine!

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Frenchy

  Hello, MDS,

  It's so very easy to read into these words our hopes and dreams. The fact of the matter is that specifics are missing and great 'leaps of logic' (to use Friend's phrase) are required to make those fragile connections. In the end we have a structure based on suppositions arrived at partly by statements which admittedly have more than one meaning fused with our own feeble understanding of God's will that is fueled by our personal hopes and desires.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Frenchy

  Comments on your dissertation to Wendy:

  I cannot follow your logic. How would understanding a specific Prophecy limit God? Prophecy is NOT God's mind in action. Prophecy in the context in which we are using it is a declaration or revelation or prediction by God about (a) specific event(s), not a revelation of the totality of his mind.
  

  Prophecy is no different. Prophecy, and fulfillment thereof, cannot be held to the simple-minded constraints of man, who insist upon ONE FULFILLMENT of His glorious Word

  
  MDS, I don't believe that anyone is insisting upon ONE fulfillment as you state here. And if by saying that ‘None of God's creation... can be really, "measured,", including prophecy', you are meaning that the creation cannot be fully understood then I agree and I would point out that this is also true of prophecy which means that to stand up and presume to explain something that is admittedly not understood is folly.
  Again, I find myself unable to follow your logic: "The amount of fulfillment then, may just depend upon how well, we know God, His purposes and written word more than anything else." How so? That would be doing exactly what you said is impossible to do, namely limiting God. Why would God necessarily limit fulfillment of his prophecies based on how much we know or understand about him? And who is ‘we'? Suppose I know more than you. Will the prophecies be limited based on YOUR knowledge or MINE? I'm sorry but I can't follow you on this.
  I'll skip over the part about most of us not having sufficient faith and no authority to make evaluations concerning prophecy.
  Now I am again having trouble with one of your assertions: "Actually, in the mind of God, he delivers his "Son," many times from "Egypt," or what is "Egypt," in His mind." Are you answering Paul's question at Romans 11: 33,34 which you quoted earlier? Are you saying that YOU have ‘come to know Jehovah's mind.'? Paul was inspired to write a goodly portion of the Bible and he never claimed to know God's mind. You're talking about what is in God's mind after having made a point of telling us that ‘puny man' cannot ‘limit' God's mind.
  So do you claim to know the mind of God? Please answer this.
  You keep using phrases like: "Again, the Word of God, is deep, too deep for many...", insinuating that you are above us in these matters. This is insulting. Perhaps you don't mean it to be so but it is. You have not demonstrated to us an ability of yours which is beyond ours. You are telling us what the WTBS has told us for decades. You are telling us that these things are beyond us and then you get on your soap box and proceed to tell us what is on God's mind! Do you see what you are doing?
  

  Now, since Isaiah 11th chapter is prophetic of the future, (most would agree, after reading the chapter), and with verse 11 mentioning that God would "for the second time" deliver "Israel" from "Egypt," thus, makes for I believe, a most unique fulfillment of Hosea 11:1 ...I called my Son out of Egypt", in our present day and time.

  
  I have already demonstrated how that prophecy could and was fulfilled in pre-Christian times. That phrase of yours, ‘second time' has been accounted for and explained. How about that phrase of yours, "I believe"? A while ago you knew what was on God's mind! You're guessing or at the very least repeating someone else's guess.
  

  Which forces us to say, the realization of Isaiah 11:11 , then must be ANOTHER FULFILLMENT of the prophetic words Hosea 11:1 ,

  
  –Explained and dealt with. You're making giant leaps of logic again, extrapolating.
  I'll stop here because this is too long as it is. I'm sorry but you are not reasoning you are just stating things without a sufficient basis. You choose to not see the ‘holes' in your theories and you brush aside valid counter arguments. I see no difference in your approach and that of the WTBS which you are condemning.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  circare

  MDS again thank you taking the time to answer.

  As there is a little reading to do here, and other duties that call upon my time, may I get back to you with my response?

  PS. Sorry I missed talking with you in the chat room. I was having a few 'technical difficulties' and could not keep up with the conversation. cc
• 

  larc

  Circare,

  Are you going to thank Frenchy for taking the time to answer??
• 

  MDS

  Hi Wendy:

  This question was asked above concerning Isaiah 11th chapter:

  ... after reading the above, does not this entire chapter seem to you, as it does to many, including Bible Scholars, "Messianic," an "eschatological passage," a glorious "end-time" prophecy? ...A simple question...a simple answer.

  To which you replied:

  MDS...NO! Do you want me to explain?

  
  
  Please do.

  MDS

  Remember: To "Preach" or to "Herald" a Message, Can Mean To "Announce," "Proclaim" Or to "Serve Notice." -- Jehovah's Witnesses As "Israel," Prophesied To Be "Disciplined," "Fall" and Later "Restored" To God's Favor. -- See John 15:22; Isaiah 30:26; Micah 4:6,7

  Edited by - MDS on 31 January 2001 16:47:2
• 

  Frenchy

  MDS:
  I notice that you are real quiet when you are shown up.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-