Minimus' Post Gave Me Courage To Finally Post My Questions, New Here

by toweragent 88 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  jgnat

  Welcome, toweragent. It sounds like a formerly firm foundation has all turned to mud, and you are floundering. I suggest you take your time firming up your beliefs this time. It is during this time of uncertainty that you will do your deepest thinking, and it is this exercise I believe that is best for you. Don't take answers given here as gospel, either.

  "How can I be SURE that the Watchtower organization is NOT being used by Jehovah? How can I be sure that they just haven't gone astray like the apostate nation of Israel? "I will make Israel an object of mockery and ridicule among the nations." I Kings 9:7: It certainly seems as if Jehovah is letting the Watchtower get mocked, and rightfully so. But will they ever be acceptable to him?"

  Might I suggest that the cycle of revelation, establishment, coasting, fail, and renewal is common to all people, all nations, for all time? Why should Isreal have failed so badly that Jehovah would not forgive? While WTS was forming up, Isreal itself was rebirthed as a nation.That doesn't sound like Isreal is condemned for all time.

  WTS's failure should not be used as "evidence" that they have the truth. Otherwise you also have to consider if Bozo the Clown is the resurrected Messiah.

  I judge every organization by it's fruit. This is also biblical. Bad fruit, cut it off. If the tree holds on to the bad fruit, don't trust the tree. I trust the Red Cross. Not for spiritual matters, surely, but it is a proven reliable organization.

  I suggest when you attend meetings, take more notes than you ever have. Mark down weasel words. If they use the word "evidently", have they truly provided the evidence? Make note of your questions and challenges in your notebook. If a verse is quoted, did they provide it in context? Did they use a bible verse at all? Did they leave anything out that might be critical to their position? Once you start looking, you will find flawed thinking and sloppy verse use everywhere.

  I suggest you don't bring up doubts or tough doctrinal topics with your wife until you are more settled in your mind. There is an exercise you can do now though that helps every time. I know, because I am married to a Witness. There is in every person a core of their natural personality, that is separate and apart from the put-on Witnessisms. You recognize the Witness. They give the same canned greetings, dress the same, smile the same.

  I am talking about something else; those things about your wife that make her unique and special. What are her talents, hopes, and dreams? Did she set anything aside to be a better publisher/pioneer? Might she like to take it up again? Do all you can to enhance your natural woman. She comes out when you are away from the meetings and literature the longest. She shows up on holidays, in jokes and laughter. Learn to spot the difference. You will only ever talk heart-to-heart with this natural woman. Ask her what she thinks, how she feels. Even if she is still a staunch supporter, respect her for making up her own mind. It is the awakening of this natural personality that is critical to independent thinking.
• 

  man oh man

  Hate to say it but; you need to research and answer these questions yourself (with help of course). For me reading and researching everything about the watchtower society and shutting my mind down to the mind control at the meetings has allowed me to deprogram. Now after a year and a half not only am I starting to learn things over to find the truth I have totally let go of the false notion that Jehovah is using this pothetic organization.

  Keep in mind that Jehovah rejected the nation of Isreal and selected individuals out of every tribe and nation. Why would he choose a group again on the earth that would simply repeat the mistakes of national Israel? Those that worship him today are not under a list of written rules and trapped again to be followers of men. No they are a free people. They exhibit the fruitage of Holy Spirit in the way they act overall. This fruitage is Gods work in them and not there own works this way no one can boast or judge.

  Visit jwstruggle.com for refreshing research that is biblically sound.
• 

  bigmac

  toweragent--thanks for sharing with us. some of us--like me--have been totally out of it for many years---and can see it for what it really is.

  just take your time on here--stick around---post when you want/need to--we all know where your coming from.
• 

  ziddina

  Welcome to the board...

  It's interesting that it was the loving atmosphere of your old congregation versus the cold atmosphere of your new congregation that prompted you to take another look at the religion, instead of being prompted by factual evidence.
• 

  Giordano

  Welcome Tower agent! I hear ya......... it's hard to realize that a lot of, pretty much all, JW doctrine is just made up Adventist bull crap. You may be interested in knowing that your not the only one with a JW problem, according to the 2008 Pew Survey of religions the JW's have the very worst retention level of any religion. 67% of born-ins no longer identify themselves as JW's. How come? The internet has had a huge negative effect on the WTBTS where all of their mistakes and flip flops are now documented. And their loser polices like no higher education, shunning practices, and their interference with medical treatments like blood transfusions that have killed more JW's each year then those who died at Jonestown. You asked: "How can I be SURE that the Watchtower organization is NOT being used by Jehovah?" All of the above. You don't believe them any more now you need to figure out what to believe and to do that you've got to crack the books on science and history and of course mind control. Your mention of the Candace Conti case reminded me to tell you that's the best excuse to use. It's the 'stumble' of stumbles. It can't be contested....... it's a fact and the WT policies contributed to this happening over and over again and still do so You don't want to attend meetings until the pedophiles are no longer given cover in the KH nor go door to door encouraging people to think their children would be safe with the JW's conducting a bible study. It's the only thing you have to tell the elders or family members if they bring up your fade. You've been stumbled good and proper.....use it.
• 

  man oh man

  "So now the main point of my post is this. How can I be SURE that the Watchtower organization is NOT being used by Jehovah? How can I be sure that they just haven't gone astray like the apostate nation of Israel?"

  This video might help. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hLXOzQQ2ePM

  "Things I Could Never Believe - Trinity, Hellfire, and the condition of the dead. Those things are surefire to me"

  Not all christians outside the watchtower believe these things.

  "Things I Don't Believe - Blood transfusions, the misuse of disfellowshipping, 607 and 1914."

  Why would God use an organization that blatantly uses such false doctrines?

  "My second Point is this: If the Watchtower is wrong, then what does God want from us? What was Jesus really trying to teach us? Is there going to be an earthly paradise ever or is a hevenly reward for all? What is the ressurrection really about? What is our hope, really?"

  Much of your faith can remain in tact if you just give it time and do more bible reading. These things are not dependant upon the watchtower organization. Many that have left the watchtower still believe in these things. Don't give up because the watchtower is false.

  "My problem is, I so badly WANT to believe that the Watchtower is right. I want them to be used by Jehovah"

  But why? Why not want it Jehovah's way? This video might help.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO__Q9z6Rwg&list=UL
• 

  everchangingworld

  Welcome!

  I can totally relate to the feeling of "wanting" it to be true!

  I was in my 30s when I realized I had to face some major doubts - but I was really scared. I didn't see how life outside the organization could have any meaning.

  Without what I had always thought was truth, life seemed empty, a dark hole. I didn't want to lose my friends either. I had been pioneering since high school - I didn't want all those sacrifices to have been for nothing. BUT I couldn't ignore my doubts. If the org. wasn't God's channel, I needed to know so that I could live the rest of my life accordingly. I was also terrified of what it would mean for my marriage - my husband was an elder and pioneer.

  Anyway, I wish you the best. Take your time to do research. Don't be afraid of what you find. To have to constantly reconcile every thought is exhausting - I have found that having to start my belief system from scratch was much easier.

  Have you looked at the book "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Steve Hassan? It might be an interesting exercise to see parallels between JWs and many other religions/groups.
• 

  DesirousOfChange

  You can ask this and its related questions about the catholic church, as well.

  Yes, the Vatican has probably had the greatest roll in preserving the Bible than any other entity. That's why one of the better manuscripts is referred to as: Codex Vaticanus or Vatican 1209.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

  My problem is, I so badly WANT to believe that the Watchtower is right. I want them to be used by Jehovah. But the problem is...I don't think they are right...and I don't think Jehovah is using them.

  I think that's where I was originally. I wanted to believe all the "mistakes" were, in fact, innocent mistakes.

  But consider the brazenly (TM) distorted quotes in publications i.e., The Creation or Creator Book (don't recall which it is)? Nothing innocent about it.

  Even as a MS, but more so as an Elder, you see the corruption and favoritism in the Organization. The higher you rise in the ranks, you find it is still there. Why would you assume it's not there at the very "top"?

  When you know of Elders appointed who were involved in immoral/corrupt things even at their appointment, it becomes obvious that there is no Holy Spirit directing this, as is claimed. So, if it's lacking at that level, why would you think it's working at the very "top"?

  Especially as you rise in the ranks you begin to see the "money trail". Almost every decision is about money. Dontation arrangement? Taxes (money). Assembly Hall fees? Money. Disaster Relief? (Evidently) money.

  I won't even start on the Generation changes, the F&DS change, the Sodom & Gomorrah flip-flops, blood fractions, or what Ray Franz' COC reveals.

  Trust me, at my age, I think it would have been easier to take the Blue Pill.

  At 24? Your early in the game. Take charge of your life NOW.

  Still, I feel your pain.

  Doc
• 

  Ding

  Welcome!

  You are right to recognize the importance of 1914. The whole WT system depends on it being correct. That's ironic, given that Brother Russell claimed that Jesus returned invisibly in 1874, not 1914, and died believing that.

  If you haven't already done so, I urge you to read Don Cameron's book Captives of a Concept.

  His main point is that if Jesus didn't return invisibly in 1914 and, about 5 years later, inspect all the religions and find the Watchtower organization to be faithfully and discreetly dispensing good spiritual food, then the organization's claim to be Jehovah's spokesman, the "faithful and discreet slave," are totally bogus.Then the whole organizational system collapses.

  When you study in detail what the organization was teaching as "truth" in 1919, I think you will agree that there is no way Jesus Christ would consider them to be faithful and wise dispensers of spiritual truth. You need look no farther than the fact that if the WTS' current teachings are correct, then 95% of what they were dispensing as "truth" in 1919 was not only wrong but also heretical.

  Don't let their misuse of Proverbs 4:18 mislead you. For example, in the 1918 book, The Finished Mystery, they taught that Michael = the Pope. They did! I have a copy. No amount of "progressive light" theology can change the fact that that one teaching alone was so far off and so bizarre as to thoroughly discredit anyone who promoted it. And, as you'll see from Don's book, that's just the tip of the iceberg. There are several threads here on JWN that list many such nonsensical teachings from that book and contemporaneous WT publications. And that's what Jesus' supposedly inspected and pronounced to be good spiritual food which made the WT organization worthy of being appointed as "the faithful and discreet slave"!

  Please keep an open mind regarding what you will or won't believe in the future. Once you conclude that the WTS is a blind guide and start reading the Bible without the WT spin that has been fed to you all these years, you'll be surprised how much of what the organization claims to be biblical is nothing of the sort.
• 

  smmcroberts

  Welcome, TowerAgent!

  Literally speaking there is no certainty in life. So you'll never know with 100% certainty that the WT is not being used by the war god of the ancient Hebrews (aka "Jehovah"). Just as we don't know for sure whether or not fairies exist. But we can be reasonably sure; or as the law puts it: sure beyond a reasonable doubt.

  What made me 99.9999% sure was this: from 1921-1952 the WT held that vaccinations were "a direct violation of the everlasting covenant God made with Noah after the flood" Does that sound familiar? It should: It's the same thing they continue to say about blood transfusions. They also stated that "Vaccination has never saved a human life. It does not prevent smallpox.” (The Golden Age, February 4, 1931, pp. 293-294). In the meantime, vaccination erradicated smallpox from the United States, and eventually from the face of the Earth.

  Similarly, from 1967-1980 they held that organ transplants were against God's law. In the meantime, Witnesses needing transplants died, while "worldly" people in the same situation lived.

  Now, here's the thing:

  1. If the GB is "faithful and discreet," they must've felt certain that they "had Jehovah's spirit" guiding them in these deadly pronouncements (otherwise it wouldn't have been discreet to issue them.)

  2. But if they felt "certain" that these things were against God's law, and later they admitted that they were not against God's law, then it follows that they don't know when God's spirit is directing them and when it is not directing them.

  3. If they don't know when God's spirit is directing them, then they must not know what God's direction feels like.

  4. If they don't know what God's direction feels like, then they must have never felt it.

  5. If they have never felt God's direction, then God is not directing them.