"Believers" vs. Atheists- Why this formulation?

by Band on the Run 132 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Phizzy

  The variety of thought that we find along the spectrum that is Believer to Atheist is what has given us a lot of interesting debate on here.

  Some will insist that a "beleiver" is or must be thus and so ,or that an Atheist is or must be thus or so, and they are quickly disabused of the idea that any label is one size fits all, even if the "all" are at one end or other of the spectrum.

  The real sparks flying stuff occurs when people insist that something is true, and therefore must be accepted, without satisfactory proof.

  Almost to a man (or woman) JWN posters who left the JW's did so because they actually care about what is true, even if they left because of bad personal experience, it was because that experience proved the religion to be untrue.

  Wherever we are on the spectrum we get annoyed at untruth or people pushing as true that which we see as unproven or unprovable, and rightly so.

  But it never really is as simple as "Believers vs Atheiests", it is more my deeply held convictions against yours, and we have to try to see if there is perhaps some truth in both, and where we may have to discard some deeply held thing, in the cause of upholding truth.

  But let us not be afraid of, or stifle such debate on here, it is good for us, and for lurkers.
• 

  snare&racket

  Wow, interesting views Flying High x
• 

  NewChapter

  BOTR---it really isn't Believers vs Atheists, and you see this. It really boils down to a certain kind of believer vs --------- I could say atheists, but I also think anyone that does not believe as they do. And since these are the most vocal, it gets painted this way.

  I have been trying to be more careful in how I address this, and I fail a lot, but there is are big differences between those that still believe. I respect you and your perspective. You have faith, and that makes you happy. But on the other hand, you don't try to contort and force everything to fit in that ideology. You don't try to co-opt science, and love, and charity and make it as though that is only the realm of faith and a god, and those expressing such get it from the god whether they acknowledge it or not.

  I did start a thread where I asked other kinds of believers to come share. The conversation was more stimulating, but too sparse. I look forward to more discussions with different types of believers. They have very valid things to say, and interesting perspectives, and we just don't hear enough from them.
• 

  Chariklo

  Band, I totally agree with so much that you say. I don't think I've ever said to you, but when I first found this board about eighteen months ago, you were one of the people whose religious outlook seemed the closest to my own.

  At that point, though, I didn't come out of the JW's, I was still too indoctrinated and in the iron grip of a manic control-freak sister. When I came back here properly in February this year, I still thought you were on my wavelength.

  I don't understand some of what you've written. I don't hear voices either. I am through and through Catholic, though brought up Anglican. Mainstream Catholic too, not charismatic. But I allow for the difference in gift and perception that makes the variety of experience between different individuals of good will such a joy and not an impediment.

  I think I am going to send you a PM, maybe not right this minute but a little later today.

  The one thing that gave me a frisson of horror when I read it in your post was what you wrote about cutting and pasting from library books. Not physically and literally, I hope?! ;)
• 

  Band on the Run

  I can't imagine that a God worth worshipping would condemn atheists. Certainly, YHWH or El would. It is hard to reconcile that god with the God of Jesus.

  I'm not certain of the full length of time between Genesis and Revelation but social and economic changes had to take place to produce a gentler God.

  What disturbs me is the imposition of a particular view of God on all other humans. The Crusades come to mind. 9/11 still causes to cry.

  I am aware that my God is fashioned from my world view. Academia is important to me. Knowledge is exciting. Learning about other religions allows me to see parallels to Christianity.

  All I want to do is assert that there are other versions of Christianity. My version is appropriate for me. The WT Jehovah is a puny god. Christ should be powerful enough to reconcile the entire world.

  I just feel mainstream Christians (I don't believe "mainstream" is a good word) should be noted, too. We seem to be left out of the question. Perhaps there is a concept of Christ that makes our vision seem very small.
• 

  tec

  Band, I do not know anyone who has stated that you cannot believe as you choose to believe, or who has called you an atheist.

  But just as you think that some forms of belief/faith are wrong (or aspects of it); some others will think the same of yours.

  I think that your 'conflict' is a personal one. I think you have admitted as much before.

  There are times when I really agree with something you write; and times when I strongly disagree. You and I just finished a recent discussion where you asked me many questions about my faith.

  I can't imagine that a God worth worshipping would condemn atheists.

  See, this is a statement that leads me to believe that you have misconstrued what some others (those you speak of in your OP) believe. Because my faith in Christ and God, in spirit, teaches just this. (as well as teaches those who share this faith with me) No one is condemned for being an atheist. Indeed, there are those who do by nature all the things required of the law (love), because that is what is within them.

  We will disagree very much on some aspects of the religion of Christianity. But on the love and mercy and forgiveness of Christ, and therefore God... I hope we will agree for the most part.

  It really boils down to a certain kind of believer vs --------- I could say atheists, but I also think anyone that does not believe as they do.

  I must object to this, NC. I am not 'versus' anyone who does not believe as I do. I might not agree with some things, but i will also apply this 'he who is not against you is for you' unless someone is stating something that is in direct conflict with Christ and His teachings. Even then, the most i can do i share my understanding, and leave others to do with that what they will.

  I just want to be able to share my faith to those who want to share with me, and be able to speak... same as you.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  Iron Rod

  "I can't imagine that a God worth worshipping would condemn atheists. Certainly, YHWH or El would. It is hard to reconcile that god with the God of Jesus."

  Matthew 11:20-24

  New International Version (NIV)

  Woe on Unrepentant Towns

  20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
• 

  NewChapter

  Band, I do not know anyone who has stated that you cannot believe as you choose to believe

  Tec, you say that if some understanding is in clear contradiction with your understanding of Christ, only one is true. You call it a clear conflict with Christ's teachings, but that really boils down to your interpretation of Christ's teachings. Other have a very different, and well supported, interpretation of those teachings, and their interpretation strongly disagrees with yours. You have also said that some claim to be Christians, but you question their Chrisitanity. You questioned my past Christianity by bringing up the wine/bread ritual. Of course people can believe as they wish, but when they self-identify as Christian, you have pretty much indicated you don't always accept that.

  These discussion generally end with a debate between a certain kind of believer and atheists. It's lopsided. A minority might believe like you, voices, visions, revelation, subjective understandings, but I don't believe that is the bulk. They don't take part as much in the conversations because they have been your style Christianity vs---everything else.
• 

  tec

  Tec, you say that if some understanding is in clear contradiction with your understanding of Christ, only one is true.

  You think Band hasn't said that she thinks I am wrong? Of course she has. Big deal. Disagreeing is not disallowing.

  You have also said that some claim to be Christians, but you question their Chrisitanity.

  You twist a lot. I don't say that to be combative, but you do.

  I said that not all who claim to be christian, ARE christian. Christ decides. Not me.

  You questioned my past Christianity by bringing up the wine/bread ritual.

  No, I questioned who you were following... Christ, or the WTS. It was a question, not a condemnation, and you eventually answered it.

  Of course people can believe as they wish, but when they self-identify as Christian, you have pretty much indicated you don't always accept that.

  It is not for me to accept or not to accept. It is for Christ. As i have stated before.

  I will sometimes state if an action is against what Christ taught though. Yes. That doesn't mean someone does not belong to Him. But again, that is for Him to state, and not me.

  These discussion generally end with a debate between a certain kind of believer and atheists. It's lopsided. A minority might believe like you, voices, visions, revelation, subjective understandings, but I don't believe that is the bulk. They don't take part as much in the conversations because they have been your style Christianity vs---everything else.

  Or maybe you don't notice their contributions as much, because you are mostly arguing against people like me, and those are the threads (regarding faith) that take up your time?

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  NewChapter

  Or maybe you don't notice their contributions as much, because you are mostly arguing against people like me, and those are the threads (regarding faith) that take up your time?

  No. They don't contribute as much on the subject. I started a thread asking about those that don't believe in your particular voices/visions interpretation. We had a nice discussion, but it was from a lot of people that rarely show up for those discussions.