"Believers" vs. Atheists- Why this formulation?

by Band on the Run 132 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  NewChapter

  They do however vary in many doctrines and I think only Chtist can decided to what DEGREE they are Christian.

  Yes, but according to you, I was never a 'true' Christian. You do think you have that much leeway to decide. Just say it, LOL, I don't care. I only care when a big display is made that you can't judge another's Christianity---but then you judge it.

  And I still don't get the 'degrees' criteria. What does that mean? What does that mean? What does that mean?

  Will Christ look at some Christians and decide that their 'degree' was too cool, hot, lacking, whatever? And what does that mean for those that are a higher 'degree'? Can some Christianity be unacceptable because of 'degree'? Or are all Christians simply Christian, and degree does not effect outcome? And what degree are you? Because I feel pretty sure that you likely think you are a pretty high degree. And that is comforting. But what is it based on?
• 

  Christ Alone

  The reason why many feel that those that fall away were not true Christians is that the Bible speaks about the "elect"; those that were chosen as Christians from before the foundation of the world. If you have been saved, then that is something that you will never lose. This is based on, among other scriptures, John 3:36 which says: " Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." The key word is "HAS" eternal life. That leads to the doctrine of eternal security.

  Eternal security is something that we never had as JWs. According to WT teaching, someone can be a true blue Jehovah's Witness, but lose it all because of falling away. Christianity teaches that if someone accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior, that is something that will never be lost.

  This leads to the question, what about those that were "saved" but then fell away? 1 John 2:19 supports what PSac has been saying. It says: " They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
• 

  PSacramento

  I know that is a comforting thought. It shields you and other 'true' Christians from reality. I was a 'true' Christian, but you have certainly judged my Christianity by saying that I never really was a Christian. Cofty was a 'true' Christian, but not according to you.

  No, it isn't a comforting thought, far from it actually.

  I was echoing how you were saying based on there being a "black n white" definition of being a Christian, which I don't agree with.

  As I said, it is soothing to think so, but what do you base it on? Perhaps we were just different 'degrees' of Christian? It does make it easy to dismiss us, doesn't it? Safe.

  Actually, I think it is easier to dismiss you by saying you simply never were Christians, which I disagree with.
• 

  Chariklo

  EntirelyPossible

  ALL Christians share the same core belief - Jesus Christ, Son of God, Lord and Saviour, died, resurrected and will come again.

  Well there's your problem. That wasn't always true. That's a developed idea over many hundreds of years, there were lots of 1st century Christians that didn't believe that.

  That's interesting. Please can you expound on that thought a bit to explain further why you say that? Who were the "lots of 1st century Christians" who didn't believe that and where are the sources that say that, please?

  Maybe you accept that they believed some of what PSacramento said but you have read that other bits in his statement wouldn't have been true of all of them. Which bits would you agree with, which bits wouldn't you agree with, and why, please?
• 

  PSacramento

  Have you guys read about Donatism?
• 

  NewChapter

  The reason why many feel that those that fall away were not true Christians is that the Bible speaks about the "elect"; those that were chosen as Christians from before the foundation of the world.

  Ah, so some were predestined. Interesting. Why bother teaching or trying---it was decided before the foundation of the world. Eat. Drink. Be Merry.

  PS---are you going to address the 'degrees' questions I keep throwing out there?

  You don't agree that I was never a Christian? Now I'm confused. You said that once a Christian, always a Christian and those that 'fall away' were never really Christians. That's ME. LOL. It is. I was once a Christian and no longer a Christian, so when I apply your platitude practically, I was never a Christian. And THAT'S comforting! It's also judging my Christianity, which you say you can't do, but you do.
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  That's interesting. Please can you expound on that thought a bit to explain further why you say that? Who were the "lots of 1st century Christians" who didn't believe that and where are the sources that say that, please?

  Read Lost Christianities by Bart Earhman.

  Maybe you accept that the believed some of what PSacramento said but you have read that othe bits in his statement wouldn't have been true of all of them. Which bits would you agree with, which bits wouldn't you agree with, and why, please?

  I am not sure what your question is.
• 

  Christ Alone

  Ah, so some were predestined. Interesting. Why bother teaching or trying---it was decided before the foundation of the world. Eat. Drink. Be Merry.

  I don't believe it was "decided". I believe it is more of God "foreknew" who would ultimately accept the message and who would not. Free will was never taken away, so people do have control over their destiny. However, it was/is already known what they would decide to do.
• 

  PSacramento

  You don't agree that I was never a Christian? Now I'm confused. You said that once a Christian, always a Christian and those that 'fall away' were never really Christians. That's ME. LOL. It is. I was once a Christian and no longer a Christian, so when I apply your platitude practically, I was never a Christian. And THAT'S comforting! It's also judging my Christianity, which you say you can't do, but you do.

  It is not for ME to judge if you were or not or to what degree you were or not and THAT is my whole point.

  I mentioned that because, for some there is no "degree" of CHristianity, either you are or you are not and if you ever were but are not now, then that means you never were, BUT in MY view, I find that to "black and white" and it has been my experience that things are never that "black n white".
• 

  PSacramento

  RE: The Elect.

  IMO, I think the elect were those Christians pre-selected for "special" works, like the apostles for example.