Survey: Who here is an atheist? Who here still believes in God?

by Christ Alone 295 Replies latest jw friends

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    You know that I was referring to the 4 gospels. But it would be no different in any of the gnostic gospels. People rejected Jesus. That's a fact. Even if you only go by what you know from outside secular history, people rejected Jesus. Christians were killed as heretics and followers of a cult.

    C.A. Think about this. Why would anyone reject Jesus if he were performing miracles right before their eyes? These are eyewitnesses to his miracles, and they rejected him. We actually have nothing to compare it to, since we've only seen bogus miracles and healings. You could say that these people lived in a less cynicle time in a way, since it was long before our current scientific method, and they were more accepting of supernatural intervention.

    There were political reasons to downplay anything good Jesus did, for sure. We can see that today. Today when the president accomplishes something great, it is downplayed and mocked. So I'm sure that happened then also. But think about an honest hearted person, like me, or Cofty, or many of the other atheists on the board. If we witnessed a severed ear being healed back to a head, we are going to take notice! I think even the most ardent opposer, on seeing a man they've known in their area all his life, being given sight for the very first time will reevaluate things quickly.

    That didn't happen. It would seem the miracles were not real. Not if honest-hearted people could reject them. If anything even happened. It is much more likely that they did not happen, and in the retelling of the story they were added to give authority to the account. Raising people from the dead? Feeding the masses with a few fishes and bread? THOUSANDS?

    How would this not come to the knowledge of the Romans? The Romans had no problem adding one more god to their list. They would have probably been willing to listen and investigate. I know that there are stories of the Romans persecuting Christians, but this was political. There are also stories of Roman emporers paying homage to local gods. They actually didn't oppress people religiously, as a rule. So are there some Roman writings about these remarkable miracles? Not that I know of. Are there writings outside of scripture and gnostic scripture about these miracles? Other eyewitnesses? Did they write anything down? Did ANYBODY investigate the hoopla and record their findings?

    It seems we have only the writings in the scriptures, but I don't think that is likely. I think something like this would have got a lot of attention outside the Jewish/Christian community.

    I could be wrong. There may be writings. Please direct me if there are and I was not aware of them. But seriously, I don't think knowledge of these very public miracles would have only caught the eye of the Jews. Roman soldiers, governors, judges---they were all over Israel. If they couldn't write, they cetainly had scribes.

  • Healthworker
    Healthworker

    CA - have you started to count the votes?

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    'I'd like to meet a real life Maltheist, Outlaw. Someone who believes in God, but believes He is evil.'

    Isn't that WTwizard's view? I hope I got the right poster. He beleives that Satan came to free humans from bondage to an evil god.

  • Healthworker
    Healthworker

    just like highschool CA. some of us just want to do our homework (you and me and Chariklo)

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo

    Ah, thanks for including me, Healthworker!

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades
    Think about this. Why would anyone reject Jesus if he were performing miracles right before their eyes? These are eyewitnesses to his miracles, and they rejected him. We actually have nothing to compare it to, since we've only seen bogus miracles and healings. You could say that these people lived in a less cynicle time in a way, since it was long before our current scientific method, and they were more accepting of supernatural intervention.

    this was at a time when they didn't know much about the world around them. how would they know that the fireballs from heaven were nothing more than rocks that traveled from far, far away and not judgements from god or harbingers of doom? they had no knowledge of techtonic plates, so if an earthquake occured...what else were they going to think? the explanations were going to be supernatural and attributed to a god, whether one existed or not, simply because that was the "logic" of the day.

    thankfully, the scientific method dispelled those myths and we can now use that information we've gained from a proper study to do useful things like build our homes to resist the forces in earthquakes or, hopefully someday try and protect ourselves from meteorites, and a whole host of other things.

    There were political reasons to downplay anything good Jesus did, for sure. We can see that today. Today when the president accomplishes something great, it is downplayed and mocked. So I'm sure that happened then also. But think about an honest hearted person, like me, or Cofty, or many of the other atheists on the board. If we witnessed a severed ear being healed back to a head, we are going to take notice! I think even the most ardent opposer, on seeing a man they've known in their area all his life, being given sight for the very first time will reevaluate things quickly.

    exactly. that's empirical evidence. if a guy is walking around gluing ears on without the aid of a horse, that's data. it's something anyone could observe. if it were real.

    That didn't happen. It would seem the miracles were not real. Not if honest-hearted people could reject them. If anything even happened. It is much more likely that they did not happen, and in the retelling of the story they were added to give authority to the account. Raising people from the dead? Feeding the masses with a few fishes and bread? THOUSANDS?
    How would this not come to the knowledge of the Romans? The Romans had no problem adding one more god to their list. They would have probably been willing to listen and investigate. I know that there are stories of the Romans persecuting Christians, but this was political. There are also stories of Roman emporers paying homage to local gods. They actually didn't oppress people religiously, as a rule. So are there some Roman writings about these remarkable miracles? Not that I know of. Are there writings outside of scripture and gnostic scripture about these miracles? Other eyewitnesses? Did they write anything down? Did ANYBODY investigate the hoopla and record their findings?

    this is perhaps the most telling of all. this was at a time when they believed in this sort of thing. gods were off fighting each other, miracles were possible, etc. and it wasn't just the jews, but everyone.

    so if some guy was walking around and healing people, why do we not hear about this from anyone? this is the sort of thing where news should have traveled pretty fast, even if we're only talking about 3 1/2 years. it was enough to get pilate involved, so why not more eyewitness accounts? why not more eyewitness accounts of lazarus of all people? or the roman soldier's servant? he was a roman after all. i can't see how news of THAT didn't spread like wildfire, some jew heals a roman's servant who was on the brink of death...gotta imagine rome's gonna want to see this guy and have a look see for themselves at the very least.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    I haven't found one respectable scholar that would go so far as to say that Jesus did not exist.

    I could find a scholar or expert that said just about anything, certainly that Jesus did not exist.
    This just goes back to the "true Scottsman" argument. Any "scholar" that offers strong thought that Jesus did not exist would not be respectable according to you.

    But for the most part, there are no current scholarly writings or serious historical scholarly writings that suggest that Jesus never existed.

    Still, all claims of Jesus' existence come from the writings of other people. I grant that recording of events became better in later times, but for the record, there is no Roman document confirming that Pontius Pilate participated in the execution of a man named Jesus. All documents refering to Jesus come after the time of his supposed living, making them hearsay. The writings come from people who never met him, some proven to be frauds. If you were charged with a serious crime within the United States, the justice system would not allow any evidence as weak as the evidence for Jesus' existence.

    My real point in even answering your thread was to be contrary. You just can't take such surveys and really get an understanding of the issues. The survey conductor inserts his opinions and asks things in a leading or partial way. It smacks of the following:

    Answer only YES or NO.

    Did you stop beating your wife?

    The correct answer is NO if you never started beating your wife. But that is really not allowing any understanding.

    Even "Who here still believes in God?" indicates that a group will be left out- a group that never believed in God. And it deteriorates when we start defining "believe" and "God" among any other terms. "Jesus" should not even enter such a discussion, neither should Allah, Jehovah, Mohammed, Abraham, Buddha, or whoever.

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo

    That's a really good post, Hades!

    Except that I think you misunderstood the motivation behind the thread title. I am not aware of anyone trying to put people into groups as a policy. They are not. That was not the motivation a day or so ago when someone made a similar comment elsewhere.

    Conspiracy theories may sound good but they are about a chimera. It just isn't true.

  • Healthworker
    Healthworker

    how are you able to read so much info Chariklo

  • bsmart
    bsmart

    Agnostic

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