by Bloody Hotdogs! 697 Replies latest jw friends
So you have no actual stance, then, other than trying to point out that the bible is inconsistent?
She didn't say that. At all. Stop Sabbing (a word I just coined that means making things up) on this point. She was specifically adressing your point and how and why certain parts of the Bible are talked about.
She didn't say that. At all. Stop Sabbing (a word I just coined that means making things up) on this point. She was specifically adressing your point and how and why certain parts of the Bible are talked about.
Then what did she say? Because it sure sounded to me as though she does not have a personal stance on the nature of God. Nothing else makes sense, because if that is not the answer, then the question still has not been answered.
Peace,
tammy
Then what did she say?
It'ss written down if you want to know.
Then I will stand by what I understood, EP. She argues to point out inconsistencies in the bible, of which I have never denied. She does not have a stance on God one way or the other. Now if that is mistaken, then NC can come and perhaps expand upon it so that I have a more clear picture.
Peace,
tammy
So you have no actual stance, then, other than trying to point out that the bible is inconsistent? Because on that we are in agreement. I simply do not see it as an all or nothing book, and you seem to take is as an all or nothing book.
In your mind, with no stance one way or the other, God absolutely could be exactly as Christ showed Him to be, and not as some of the OT seems to paint Him?
*sigh* Do I have an opinion on your Christ? I don't believe your Christ exists. My opinions are on your reasoning.
I argue from the standpoint of arguing literature.
Let's take Hamlet. I could argue that he was a good son that avenged his father's death. End of story. Someone else could point out that he drove Ophelia crazy, killed her brother, killed her father, killed his mother, and sent two innocents to their death in England. To which I could say, yeah, but I don't accept that part, because my view of Hamlet is simply that he avenged his father's death.
What is my 'real' opinion of Hamlet? He doesn't exist. But if I'm arguing literature (the bible) and calling it an authority, then it is perfectly valid to take it all into account when arguing over a fictional character.
Now, I will share something that may surprise you. In the middle of writing this, I got a call from a very distraught Christian friend. She did something that was weighing her down with guilt and making her cry. I pulled a Tec. I made her focus only on what Jesus had to say on the issue and asked if she should worry about Paul when Jesus was so different? I asked her what Jesus stressed in his ministry, as opposed to what she and her church are stressing. I asked if she prayed for forgiveness (yes) then just move on unless you think from what you read about Jesus that you should continue to beat yourself up. I also pointed out that she was pretty normal, even for a Christian, because statistics show that Christians act exactly as the rest of us, and the only difference is the guilt they feel. She hung up with a light heart, laughing, and determined to just put it aside.
The assumption is that the atheists here on this board are incapable of respecting other people's beliefs and emotions. We are here to debate. This was not the time for me to say to my friend that there was no god, so why was she freaking out over such a minor thing. This was the time to validate her feelings and give her a way to work them out in her own framework. Another day muah haw.
But her god still isn't there. She knows that is how I feel about it. It doesn't matter, because I was able to use her book to reason with her and talk her down.
I have no opinion of a god that doesn't exist---only what has been written about him. If you use the bible when it fits, but dismiss it when it doesn't, I will call that out. It's like using Shakespeare and completely rewriting Hamlet as you see fit. It makes no sense.
I'll save the question for you for when we are having a conversation about the nature of God, Still. So that there is something specific to base it on. Then perhaps it will be more clear.
It really doesn't matter WHEN you ask the question tec...the question is still basically...am I right or am I right...no matter what context.
Maybe you could rephrase the question?
*sigh* Do I have an opinion on your Christ? I don't believe your Christ exists. My opinions are on your reasoning.
I argue from the standpoint of arguing literature.
Yes, this is what I got from your previous post...
Let's take Hamlet. I could argue that he was a good son that avenged his father's death. End of story. Someone else could point out that he drove Ophelia crazy, killed her brother, killed her father, killed his mother, and sent two innocents to their death in England. To which I could say, yeah, but I don't accept that part, because my view of Hamlet is simply that he avenged his father's death.
What is my 'real' opinion of Hamlet? He doesn't exist. But if I'm arguing literature (the bible) and calling it an authority, then it is perfectly valid to take it all into account when arguing over a fictional character.
Of course it is perfectly valid to take it all into account. So it is also perfectly valid of me to ask why you choose to focus on some parts, and not others... same as you asking me that same question. I have answered this. If your answer is that you focus on certain parts opposite mine just to point out the inconsitencies (in the bible, or in my reasoning), then no problem. I agree that there are inconsistencies in the bible. I have explained how i test, and who/what against. You do not accept that as valid, and think that it is inconsistent (i am guessing), but you understand what I do because I have answered it. Now I understand more of what you are doing; pointing out the opposite.
Now, I will share something that may surprise you. In the middle of writing this, I got a call from a very distraught Christian friend. She did something that was weighing her down with guilt and making her cry. I pulled a Tec. I made her focus only on what Jesus had to say on the issue and asked if she should worry about Paul when Jesus was so different? I asked her what Jesus stressed in his ministry, as opposed to what she and her church are stressing. I asked if she prayed for forgiveness (yes) then just move on unless you think from what you read about Jesus that you should continue to beat yourself up. I also pointed out that she was pretty normal, even for a Christian, because statistics show that Christians act exactly as the rest of us, and the only difference is the guilt they feel. She hung up with a light heart, laughing, and determined to just put it aside.
I think that is just awesome, actually.
I personally think, that when trying to get someone out of the wts or reason with them about the wts not being the truth, some might have more 'luck', if they showed such things as you did above with your friend; rather than trying to convince some who are not willing to let go or give up their faith. Then those people can continue their search after that, to wherever or to whomever it leads them.
The assumption is that the atheists here on this board are incapable of respecting other people's beliefs and emotions.
I don't think that is the assumption with all atheists, but the above 'knowledge' can get lost under the debate. Because not everyone comes here to debate. Some come here for support in leaving the religion, but not leaving God.
Misunderstandings are going to happen. Good to keep talking/asking questions/respecting regardless of agreement/disagreement.
We are here to debate. This was not the time for me to say to my friend that there was no god, so why was she freaking out over such a minor thing. This was the time to validate her feelings and give her a way to work them out in her own framework. Another day muah haw.
;)
I'm sure she knows that. And I'm really happy you could help her.
Peace,
tammy
I personally think, that when trying to get someone out of the wts or reason with them about the wts not being the truth, some might have more 'luck', if they showed such things as you did above with your friend;
She's not a JW. It was a sad moment for me, because I knew the weight she was carrying was absolutely needless, but that was the weight she was carrying. The best I could do was give her a different and what she might consider valid way to look at her belief system. I much rather would have liked to have freed her from all the nonsense, but that is not feasible, nor would it have been helpful to try at this time. Had i tried, I would have lost all believability to her, and would have been viewed simply as someone that didn't understand.
That's where my knowledge of all the bible contradictions can come in handy. If someone is worrying about Hell, it's easy enough to use the bible to argue against it. If someone is worried that their particular sin is heavier than some other sin, I can use the bible to argue the opposite. I can use the bible to argue the opposite of ANYTHING, so it's useful. It is certainly a weakness about the bible, a weakness that has been exploited for evil teachings, but it can be turned into a strength and relieve the guilty conscience of one crying woman. I'm sure her own associates would have used it in the opposite manner--cuz that is the bible.
So I sat and I channeled Tec. I asked her if she found a lot of hatred in her church. YES she said. I asked if she found a lot of hatred in what Jesus said. NO she said. Okay then, which fruitage are you going to trust? Do you follow your Jesus, or do you follow your church? I didn't even mention slavery, so that should make you proud.
I'm going to do my best to use my bible knowledge to steer her away from the southern fundies she's playing with. They are f**ked up, and they play havoc with her emotions. It's a strange dynamic. She knows I think the bible is mostly trash, yet she trusts my knowledge of it and other belief systems. It's a really weird spot to be in.
