Post 666: Revelation--Its Grand Climax in 70 AD (page 5)

Christ Alone

[Jehovah's Witnesses do not comprehend the dual cycle of temple prophecy yet; After Temple cleanse of the "lawless one" in the JW org, this will be taught by Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide after the "befouled garments" of the UN-Pushing-GB is removed; Zech3:2-9 - Which may be quite traumatic to most JWs, but it must fulfill soon;]

AHHHHH!!!! A JW reformer. Sorry to tell you, but the "JW org" will never reform. They are a publishing company that has no place in anything. They began as a false prophetic cult, and continue today as a multi billion dollar real estate/publishing company that teaches lies and hatred to it's 7 million + followers.

Why do you think that JWs are the ones that will comprehend these teachings of yours? Why do you still hold on to 1914, when it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that 607 is a hoax? Why do ignore that 1914 was the date that JWs believed would be the end of the world, and it was not until the 40's that they taught that it was the date of Christ's return?

JW reformers do not make any sense to me. The organization views you as an APOSTATE. YOU! They will never "come around" to your way of thinking. And by holding on to their unique teachings, people are still rolling around in the mud.

Christ Alone

I agree Sab. But people tend to paint this portrait of Jesus that is all love and no condemnation. That isn't the Jesus of the Bible at all. God IS love. And Jesus showed that. My point was that if people think the Jesus of the epistles is harsher than the Jesus of the gospels, it is because Jesus is complex and can't fit in a box. Just like God can't.

JWs break God down into little bite sized pieces that are easy to swallow. They say that He has 4 qualities. Love, Power, Justice, and Wisdom. God is more complex than that little breakdown. They think of Him in a simple way as a Father/God that created a Son. God is more complex than that. Jesus claimed to be the "I AM" which is eternal. He claimed to be God's Son, which the Jews rightly saw as Jesus claiming to be equal with God and thus eternal. Jesus, in the OT, was spoken of as mighty god and eternal father. ETERNAL. Yet there is only 1 God. That shows that God is more complex than humans can really understand. And this applies also to Jesus. That was my only point. I wasn't saying that God isn't love.

Also, another issue with Paul is that the Gospels hadn't been compiled yet. So he had nothing to quote from. Yet, Paul's epistles fit in with the gospels perfectly (IMO), and this is further proof that what Paul was teaching was inspired.

Christ Alone

Anyway, back on topic, if you sit down and compile a list of all thing that Revelation says would take place during the end times which end in Armageddon, those things could not have been fully fulfilled by Nero. And they could not have been fulfilled by 70 AD either. To try and make them fit makes as much sense, to me, as saying that all the trumpet blasts were conventions and/or resolutions that the Watchtower made in the early 20th century.

EntirelyPossible

Sounds like a way to write off what a person says to others, without any ground to stand on. I'm not saying that you don't have any ground, especially since I haven't read it myself.

Yes, Chapters 1 - the end of the book. Specifically, you can take how they define King of the North and the facts they use to support that, their alternate switching between "this sentence is symbolic and this is literal" in the same prophecy (which they use to build their chart of a timeline of events of the triblulation, armageddon, etc.), their use of "no one can know when the end will come" and then saying "but we have a REALLY good case for thinking it's gonna happen any second now" and then making sure that, if you beleive them, well, hey, Jesus said no one would know (while conventiently forgetting to mention that he said "when you are expecting it, it won't happen"). In chapter 4 they list a series of events in the last hundred or so years thast prove how unique this time in history is, but ONLY if their specific interpretation of events is true AND you ignore massive other parts of history. they use the average speed of cars and trucks increasing as proof of the fullfilment of a Daniel prophecy of men moving about to and fro over the earth, they try to make the claim, just as the JWs do, that earthquakes are increasing.

But it seemed like a very Watchtower-esque way to write off something without examining it.

Except that I had just said I read the book. Perhaps you should read what I wrote and refute that rather than setting up a strawman and trying to beat him up.

Londo111

Sab,

This is why one must consider New Testament prophetic passages in the same metaphorical language as Old Testament prophetic passages.

For instance, Isaiah 19:1 says, " An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt."

In terms of Old Testament times of Judgement, God is said to come to that nation for meting out judgement. Therefore, it is in that context that Relelation 1:17 says, "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."

Notice in Revelation, upon his coming those who pierced him would discern him coming with the clouds. If they were not on the earthly scene, how would they discern this? However, if this is referring to the same generation that put him to death, then this verse makes more sense.

sabastious

Londo, I wasn't inferring that Jesus will literally come in the clouds, I am saying that such a prophecy, whether figurative or literal is still pointing to an event in a linear timeline. Are you saying that this "coming in the clouds" already happened, as in Christ has already returned? In such a case there would be no need for a third coming.

-Sab

Quendi

This has been an interesting discussion. I myself subscribe to the preterist view, for the most part. I believe the Olivet prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed and that the book of Revelation was written before Jerusalem’s destruction. Revelation also primarily concerned itself with the destruction of Jerusalem and developments in the Roman Empire which led up to that catastrophe. One of the many reasons I believe this is because John says right at the start of Revelation that the events he records “must shortly take place,” and that those reading the prophecy and obeying it will be blessed since “the appointed time is near.”

I’d like to recommend Kenneth Gentry’s book Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation as well as James Stuart Russell’s book The Parousia: A careful look at the New Testament doctrine of our Lord’s Second Coming. Both books make good cases for their propositions.

I believe there are still parts of the book of Revelation that await fulfillment, but I don’t pretend to know when that will be. We still have sickness and death, and the “holy city Jerusalem” has not come down out of heaven. However, I will say that I don’t subscribe to the WTS eschatology at all. I don’t believe we are living in the “last days” or that there is anything significant about our particular time.

Lando111 , I have sent you a PM.

Quendi

Christ Alone

Perhaps you should read what I wrote and refute that rather than setting up a strawman and trying to beat him up.

That's the point. You didn't write anything specific. I could say, "I just read this post by EntirelyPossible. It was full of JW nonsense. Things like trying to get money from people, half truths, outright lies, and all sorts of malicious stuff." My point is that I could say all that without giving any specific examples.

I didn't set up a strawman (you might want to look up the definition of that btw). I merely asked for examples of what you were saying. It seemed like a way to write off a written work without giving examples. I wasn't defending the book. I just wanted to see how they were asking for donations to their church, " give themselves all the same outs, pick and choose facts, make mountains out of a singular comment by one person, take things out of context, use failed prediction as evidence of the truth of future prediction, etc."

An example of refuting what they said would be something like: "They taught that the King of the North was Canada. They said that if we don't go to church and donate our money, we will be killed by God. I know that is not true because...."

I wasn't trying to be a jerk. Just asking how they were asking for donations, how they used failed predictions as evidence of true future prophecy, and generated a narrative designed to get people to believe them.

Christ Alone

Are you saying that this "coming in the clouds" already happened, as in Christ has already returned?

Sab, this is the preterist view. He already did come, all the prophecies have been fulfilled, and the Devil is already being punished.

sabastious

Sab, this is the preterist view. He already did come, all the prophecies have been fulfilled, and the Devil is already being punished.

I have always wondered why it's taking such an extended period of time, but when I took a look at the entire lanscape of human antiquity 2,000 years is not all that long and all we see is progress. Two steps forward, one step back, yes, but genuine progress. Christianity isn't showing any signs of slowing down despite some rough challenges. Too many people picked up the peices of doctrine recently sliced and diced by a vehement secular community and are running with them. HERE WE COME CUBA!

-Sab

Post 666: Revelation--Its Grand Climax in 70 AD

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