Londo111, I do find the Preterist views facinating. I hope you didn't get the idea that I was pooping on your beliefs, and saying that they were necessarily wrong. I was just stating why I don't personally lean that way. But, as with everything I THINK I know, I could be very wrong. God knows I've been wrong plenty of times in the past. :-)
Post 666: Revelation--Its Grand Climax in 70 AD
by Londo111 85 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
sabastious
CA, my point is that Revelation doesn't mention the term so connecting it to the book would be considered a doctrinal theory, not a commentary on the book. JUST using the Book of Revelation the "mark of the beast" effectively means that you are not in the book life because of worshipping the beast's power which was given by God.
Revelation 13 - The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
The beast literally springs forth from no where so it's logical to conclude that it was created. The Book of Revelation is a warning against idolizing power to the point of selling your soul to the Father of the Lie. Idolizing a secular authority will most certainly puff that particular authority up effectively corrupting it and therefore requiring destruction. People like Hitler and Muammar Gaddafi were adequate kings, but they sucumbed to the will of the Dragon. They didn't have to go the way they did, they could have been good kings, but they want worship. Before the fall of Gaddafi he had tanks attacking rebel cities with a recording blasting for all to hear, "God is great."
-Sab
-
sabastious
Therefore, as part of the sign of when the End of the Temple Age comes is the preaching of the gospel in all parts of the Roman world. In the mindset of a person living under the Roman empire (Paul), this indeed took place by the time he pens his letter to the Colossians.
I just don't understand why you would pigeonhole the worldwide preaching of the Gospel to the Roman world alone (other than to call the prophecy complete). The greek word used in Matthew 24:14 is not sufficient evidence as it's only a translation of what Jesus allegedly taught. It's the Jesus character that you should give priority, not a Greek word.
How do you account for China in regards to the Gospel of Christ? Are they just good with what they had or did they need the Gospel too?
-Sab
-
Hoffnung
Paul himself wrote that the good news was preached in all the inhabited earth. So I guess around 60 AD, he considered Matt 24:14 fulfilled.
With regards to victory over death, Paul also wrote in the 2nd half of 1 Cor 15 that through the saving powers of the ransom sacrifice, death did not have powers over christians any more, as the heavenly resurrection cancels it out.
Hoffnung
-
Londo111
Sab,
I feel it's not just the Greek word, but the context of the entire Olivet Discourse that determines the scope of the verse. Of course, after the Temple Age is at an End, Christianity indeed spreads around the globe. In terms of Revelation 21 and 22, after 70 AD, the nations walk in the light of New Jerusalem, there is a river of life that flows from it, and leaves of trees that are for the curing of the nations--all aspects of the benefits that New Jerusalem provides.
-
sabastious
In regards to the use of the word "generation" in Matthew 24:34 there is an interesting usage of it in Luke 16:8
8 “The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind(ghen-eh-ah; generation) than are the people of the light.
The word actually could be used in reference to an entire "kind" of people, ethnicity or group of like minds. With this meaning for Matthew 24:34, the previous passage of 24:14 would make more sense because Jesus would be refering to the Jewish people rather than some obscure generation of people living in that day. Jesus would then be offering words of encouragement (good news) that the nation of Israel would not disappear and God's covenant with them would remain steadfast. It would also make sense given the events that followed as Christianity DID extend well beyond the world at that time. It took thousands of years, but now China has a Christian population of 70-110 million people and it's growing.
-Sab
-
Christ Alone
Hmmm...I don't see the conflict, Sab. I hope I'm not being dense. I really am trying to understand your argument. Yes, God put those governments in power. But worship is never to be given to them. Respect and conditional obedience is. But if the demand worship, then that is not to be given. Similarly IF there is a singluar antichrist during the end times, and he demands that we have the mark of the beast, to buy and sell, then that would be something that would not do based on what Revelation says. Just how that comes about, what the mark of the beast is, and why it would be required to buy and sell remains to be seen.
Also, IF there are various books of the Bible that speak of the end times (both OT and NT), and IF you believe that the entire Bible is inspired, then I don't see that it is a doctrinal theory to take the parts of all books that speak of the end times and put together a comprehensive picture of what they are saying about what would happen during the end times.
That being said, I am in no way certain of exactly how everything will happen, or even if I have any of the events right. I have a solid picture in my head of what I think the scriptures are saying and what could happen. But the problem with eschatology is that it never turns out the way that you would expect it to. I could be wrong in everything single thing I believe, which is why I try to be open to other interpretations.
-
Londo111
Sab,
If you look at how the word generation is used throughout in Matthew, for instance, in Matthew chapter 1, generation did come within an limited timeframe. Matthew 1:17 says, "All the generations, therefore, from Abraham unto David [are] fourteen generations, and from David unto the Babylonian removal fourteen generations, and from the Babylonian removal unto the Christ, fourteen generations."
Likewise, at Matthew 23:36, Jesus says, "verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation."
I am not saying that Christ did not will the Good News to be preached in China…this is the New Jerusalem fulfillment of Revelation 21 and 22. But I am saying that in terms of the Olivet discourse, the preaching was done in the Roman habitation first, which indeed occurred by 70.
-
Emery
I don't think Londo111's views are unreasonable. I did hear a good lecture on the history and background of Revelation by Bart Ehrman and I think he had a lot of interesting things to say about it. He mentioned that there are early manuscripts that have been discovered where "616" instead of "666" is written. I do think the author of Revelation was writing for an audience of Christians during that time period, not 2000 years later or in relation to some wacky 1914 generation ;p
Also, reading other apocalyses such as the apocalyse according to Peter, Paul, and Abraham has muddied up the waters for me when it relates to the inspiration and authenticity of such books.
-
Bobcat
Regarding when Revelation was written, I posted on another thread some introductory comments from the Baker Exegetical Commentary on the NT. It was one of the opening paragraphs of a section that discussed this matter. The author of the commentary has his own opinions, but before he gave them he summarized the various main views and who held them. I left it at that simply to show the OP what sort of history he was facing if he was going to attempt to prove that Revelation was written before 70 AD. Or at least if someone is serious about the subject it would provide a starting point from which to work. That thread can be found here.
Take Care