This is a great write up. Thanks for sharing this.
Post 666: Revelation--Its Grand Climax in 70 AD
by Londo111 85 Replies latest watchtower bible
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sabastious
By use of that word the writer of Matthew was envisioning the Roman world around the Mediterranean…unlikely the writer had China in mind.
It would be logical to assume the Greek writer of Matthew to have the ethnocentricities of the world he lived within. It's not surprising that the greek word for "inhabited earth" meant the "civilized world" which would exclude all but the Roman territories past and present. Nonetheless the writer's intentions are actually moot in regards to what he was writing about in Matthew 24:14 which were the alleged words of Jesus who was a Jew and would have spoken a different language with a different meaning for "inhabited earth."
The Torah was written down to unify the ENTIRE WORLD (as we are ALL created in the image of God) and therefore it makes sense that Jesus was preaching about a global message. Since the particular word that was used by Christ is lost, the Greek translation should not be held as some sort of authority.
How does God account for China? Where does it fit in the scheme? Would Christ be OK with the "inhabited earth" only pertaining to the Roman world? I would say a resounding no.
-Sab
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Bella15
There is a key to understanding this book
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
The Revelation contains things that: "is" "was" and "is to come" ...
This book should be a personal revelation to all true seekers throughout the ages, the Holy Spirit will guide you ...
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jgnat
Prophecies written twenty years after the events show a remarkable rate of fulfilment.
To continue to apply it today makes me feel that we are trapped in an endless Groundhog Day, condemning and disbelieving a progressive future, watching for the first of the four horsemen.
I wish the book of Revelation had been excluded.
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Christ Alone
So Londo111, are you a full preterist? Do you believe that Jesus second coming happened in 70 AD? Remember that the resurrection was to happen before Christ's return. (1Thes 4:15-17)
2Peter 3:1-13 says that the coming of Christ happens with the end of the heavens and the earth. When did this happen?
Paul says in 1Cor 15:26 that Christ reigns until the last enemy, death, is destroyed. Did this also happen in 70 AD?
Do you believe that Armageddon happened in 70 AD? The problem with this, if you do, is that Rev 16:12 says that at the time of Armageddon, the Great River Euphrates will be dried up to make way for the Kings of the East to come down against Israel for the Battle of Armageddon (verse 16). Another problem is that if you apply this to Rome, Rome attacked from the West, not the East.
In regards to Nero being the symbolic 666, here is why I can't subscribe to that. The problem is that many other End Times prophecies were not fulfilled in the times of Nero, nor have they been since. For example, instead of having the anti-Christ stand in the Temple proclaiming he’s God for the Abomination of Desolation as in 2 Thes 2:4 and Daniel 9:27 , Preterism claims that when Rome affixed a large model of the Roman Eagle to the wall just outside the main gate of the Temple this prophecy was fulfilled.
Also, Revelation 13 gives us alot of actions that the anti-crhist or 666 would do in which Nero cannot even remotely be credited with.
1. Nero did not force everyone to worship the Satan
2. Nero did not force Rome to receive the mark of the beast in order to buy or sell
3. Nero did not invade the temple in Jerusalem, declare himself as god, and force all of Israel to worship him as the anti-christ will do (Rev 13, Dan 9:25)
4. Nero did not receive a mortal wound, die, and get resurrected from the dead (Rev 13)
5. Nero did not make a seven year peace treaty with Israel and then break it after 3.5 years (Rev 13)
6. Nero did not lead a global crusade against Christianity as the anti-christ will do (Rev 13:7) Nero's campaign was in Rome alone
Anyway, if you read about the Anti-Christ in Revelation (particularly chapter 13), you have to make some pretty wild stretches to apply it to Nero.
Besides this fact, Preterism does not allow one to use hermeneutics to interpret the Bible. It does, largely, what the Watchtower does. It spiritualizes things that should be plain, and allows the interpreter to apply the biblical passage to anything they can make fit.
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Christ Alone
Along the same lines, I found this article online that shows how Prince Charles is the anti-christ. You really can make the Bible apply to anything if you throw out the rules of hermeneutics.
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/calculate_the_number.htm
The Bible tells us to "Calculate the number of the Beast, for the number is that of a man, and his number is 666".
If you don't know how the Hebrew gematria system of math works, here is an outline. The values 1-9 are assigned to the first 9 letters of the alphabet, 10-90 for the next 9 letters, and 100-400 for the last four letters, (they only have 22 characters in the alphabet.) Using this system of math, and applying it to the first 22 characters of the English alphabet, (the last 4 letters equate to zero), we can calculate names in English just as you can calculate names in Hebrew.
There is a man on the world scene whose name and title calculates to 666 in both Hebrew and English. He doesn't fit the image of a strong charismatic leader, and most of us think of him as "weak". He is… Prince Charles of Wales.
He was born in 1948, the year Israel became a nation. ( Interestingly, the Prophet Daniel refers to the Antichrist, in Dan. 9:26, as a Prince of the people who destroyed the Temple. He is a Prince, through his father's lineage, of the same people who destroyed the Temple in 70 AD-the Romans. He has a lineage chart through his mother's side which shows him to be the "Son of David"-and he is not a Jew. There was a documentary on Israeli television about Prince Charles which introduced his lineage chart to the Jewish people. Now all he needs to do is help the Jews get access to the Temple Mount, and he will have met the test of the true Messiah, as taught by the Rabbis.)
The Bible refers to the Antichrist as a "despicable person" who has not yet received a kingship. Prince Charles is not well respected by his own people (even more so after the Diana 'car crash'). He has been through many messy public scandals, and there have been rumours of homosexuality, adultery (proven), occult practices and spiritual worship-and he has not yet received his kingship!
When the Book of Revelation told us to, "Calculate the number of the Beast, for the number is that of a man and his number is 666", it literally gave us his name. Onomastics is the study of names. Any onomastics book will show that Charles means "man". It means "man" or "manly". The words "Charles" and "man" can be used interchangeably in that verse without affecting the meaning at all. That verse literally reads, "...for the number is that of a Charles..."
Riddle of the Seven Kings, (the 3rd riddle): In the Book of Revelation, Chapter 17, Verses 10-11, it says, "There are seven kings. Five were, one is and one is to be. The Beast is the eighth and of the seven." There were seven emperors of the Holy Roman Empire named Charles, (check the World Book Encyclopaedia). Prince Charles' lineage chart shows that he is descended, through his father, from the fifth emperor of the Holy Roman Empire named Charles, of the House of Hapsburg. Prince Charles is the eighth and, (by his lineage), he is also of the seventh.
Prince Charles' coat of arms and crest was designed for him by the British College of Heraldry, using a system of guidelines over 500 years old. It contains all the Biblical symbols of the Antichrist. It has a dog supported by a roaring lion and a unicorn, (called a wild beast with a straight horn, or a wild oxen). Psalms 22:19-21 describes these animals, with a prayer for deliverance. The composite beast of Revelation 13:2, with the head of a lion, body of a leopard and feet of a bear is symbolic for other people--but not for Prince Charles. It is on his Coat of Arms. It represents the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire. These are the animal symbols for France, the leopard; Germany, the Bear; and England, the lion. These nations represented the western arm of the Holy Roman Empire.
That verse also says, "And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority." The dragon is "symbolic" to others, but not to Prince Charles. He has a red dragon on his coat of arms. It comes from the flag of Wales, and it is in his title, Prince of Wales, that Charles is heir-apparent to the throne of Great Britain.
At his coronation, he sat on a chair with a large red dragon emblazoned on it. During the ceremony, his mother said, "This dragon gives you your power, your throne and your authority." His response to her was, "I am now your Leige-man, and worthy of your earthly worship." Leige is an old English word meaning "Lord". "I am now your Lord-man, and worthy of your earthly worship."
By the way, Prince Charles Coat of Arms has another symbol--The Order of the Garter. The Order of the Garter is the parent organization over Free Masonry, world-wide. When a man becomes a 33rd Degree Mason, he swears allegiance to that organization, and thereby to Prince Charles.
Prince Charles may seem like a wimp, and lacking charisma. He is however quite athletic, an expert horseman, a qualified jet fighter pilot in the Royal Air Force, a qualified helicopter pilot in the Royal Navy, and a senior military officer in all three branches of service.
Also, MONDEX International, the premiere cashless smartcard system, is set for rapid global implementation. Founded in 1993 by NATWEST (personal bank of the royal family) and 51% owned by MASTERCARD it is now the decided victor of the electronic cash systems. The first countries to employ MONDEX nationwide by 1998 are the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Hong Kong, China, Indonesia, Macau, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, India, Taiwan and Sri Lanka. Watch in the coming weeks for announcements on the US and the European Union. "This is the final stage in becoming a global reality," said Robin O'Kelly of Mondex International. "With MasterCard's backing, there's nothing to stop Mondex now from becoming the global standard." Note: MON-DEX is a compound of two words, monetary and dexter. Webster's defines these as {monetary - pertaining to money} {dexter- belonging to or on the right hand}.It also always seems that the devil or dark characters like Dracula often appear or are symbolized in books and films as an aristocratic person.
I also remember a newspaper article a couple of years ago when a young man tried to "assassinate" Prince Charles. He had a fake gun and ran on to the platform where Prince Charles was speaking and aimed a gun at him - Prince Charles just stood there in front of him and did not flinch.
After that incident he was interviewed and asked how he managed to stand there and not move or duck out of the way… He said "It was from years of breeding." I never quite understood what he meant until now. -
Londo111
Sab,
The context of Matthew 24:1, 2 is " And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple, and Jesus said to them, `Do you not see all these? Verily I say to you, there may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'
In verse 3, this prompts the apostles to ask, " When shall these be? And what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?"
Therefore, as part of the sign of when the End of the Temple Age comes is the preaching of the gospel in all parts of the Roman world. In the mindset of a person living under the Roman empire (Paul), this indeed took place by the time he pens his letter to the Colossians.
After the End of the Age, Christianity spread well beyond the bounds of the Roman world. But within the context of the Olivet discourse, the Roman habitation is sufficient in regard the fulfillment.
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sabastious
Anyway, if you read about the Anti-Christ in Revelation (particularly chapter 13), you have to make some pretty wild stretches to apply it to Nero.
The term "antichrist" is not present within the Book of Revelation. "The number of the beast" refers to the ownership of men by the beast which is the kings of the earth.
I have a question for you, Christ Alone, and anyone else. Who created the 7 headed Beast? Roman's 13 gives the answer:
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
Another word for "governing authority" is "king."
Revelation 17 - 6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7 Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings . Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
So, if they seven heads of the Scarlet Beast are "seven kings" that would mean that GOD created the Beast (as he creates/establishes all world authorities) with Romans 13 as a prooftext. Such an idea is not far fetched as Isaiah 47 claims that God creates disaster or "evil."
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord , do all these things.In Revelation 13 the Wild Beast is said to be worshipped:
4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
The people who are not found in the "Book of Life" are cast into the lake of fire and sulpher. This is because they have the "mark of the beast" which means that a creation of God, the Wild Beast and it's sub-kings, has marked OWNERSHIP of the people that worship it because of it's POWER. These people freely choose to worship something that never was intended to be worshiped in the first place. Everything is a means towards the Kingdom of God, not man.
-Sab
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Londo111
Christ Alone,
I respect your views. I guess you could say I'm preterism-leaning. I don't take an overly literal view of Revelation, anymore than I've a literal view of Old Testament books like Joel, which use similar imagery in regard the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BC. It makes more sense than thinking that the locusts are helicopters like my cousin believes.
Unlike when I was a Witness, I am constantly open to new thoughts and ideas and am constantly readjusting my viewpoint. For instance, at times, I do wonder if the 1000 (40*25) years are not the 40 year period before 70AD, but represent the Christian age following 70. Of course, I don't think anybody knows it all. I do believe we see through a hazy mirror and know in part.
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Christ Alone
Sab, you are correct that Revelation does not use the term "Anti-Christ". The term is taken from various parts of Johns epistles. 1Jo 2:18 is one of the verses which says: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 2Thess 2:3-12 also seems to describe a future man that will be at the center of many events.
This would be a long Leolai type post if I was to go into a full discussion of the AntiChrist and why one of the beasts in Revelation seems to apply to a single person that could be identified as a singluar antichrist. Of course, the Bible does speak of many antichrists, however in Revelation there seems to be a single individual at the center of many of the events. As you read through various "end time" passages in various parts of the Bible, a singluar figure seems to imerge. I am by no means hard headed about it, but it seems to make sense to me, especially when I read Revelation in a single sitting that there would be a single man that would be behind many of the events related in Revelation.
Various parts of the Bible seem to refer to the same individual, but uses different terms. Paul uses the term "Man of Lawlessness". Daniel 7 and Zech 11 call him the little horn and the worthless shepherd. Revelation 13 calls him a beast. Whether you believe that these refer to the future singular antichrist is up to you. Revelation 13 relates several events that would be fulfilled by this Beast, whose power was given to him by the Devil. "And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast," (Rev 13:2,3) .
In regards to who created the beasts, all governments exist because God allows it. Contrary to Watchtower teaching, the fact that they exist and rule is not a bad thing. The harm comes when people worship them and they attack God and His people. That is when God steps in. But the very fact of their existance doesn't make them evil. So I don't see a problem with the statement that God put these powers in place.