Hi Larc,
For the wider audience of those here who believe that there will be a modern day fulfillment of the prophesy under discussion, how would you prove that MDS is the one. I am sure you could help them, even it you can't help me. I think you owe it to them to give thoughtful consideration to this important, indeed, pivotal question.
Indeed, I think all JWs should give "thoughtful consideration" to such a claim. I agree on that, myself. It is a very powerful, unique claim, to be a special representative of Jehovah God.
I would certainly expect Amos 3:7 to have some, special application toward this one. That would have to be expected. And for those who have taken the time to find out, information of this nature has been provided, as some on this board can attest.
I am gald for you that you have a spiritual guide in MDS. Obviously, I am not convinced. I have asked several questions regarding points of clarification, which he refused to answer, because he said I was insincere. Since you are sincere, why don't you ask him these questions in private.
As you know, the Bible says to "turn down foolish and ignorant questionings," knowing as you do, that the only "produce fights," ... fights about words and so on. We've neither the time nor energy for such. Time is of the essence. Also, the Bible tells us that Jesus did not "wrangle," with people, even fellow-Israelites. Thus, my ministry is the same. No "wrangling" necessary. What I say, will stand on its own merit. The "truth" needs nothing to prop itself up on. It will stand. -- 2 Tim. 2:23; Matt. 12:19
Both the scriptures you quote and the statements MDS makes are abiguous enough to fit a wide range of situations and outcomes. If he fixes the date of 2001 as being important, then he can take events in 2002 and say after the fact that they were fulfillment of his predictions. Psychics, fortune tellers and clairvoyants use this technique all the time, i.e., say something vague and then after an event they show how it fits, and those who are motivated to believe, do believe. (People who do this are not demon possessed they are very clever. It has been shown in many studies, that their claims fail under scientific scrutiny)
Actually, you have no way of knowing exactly what we've said about the year of 2001, until we tell you. I assure you, what we believe about the year is in no way, "vague," to us. Again, others on this board, can attest to this fact, also.
What, for example, does the word "trample" mean as applied to the 42 months? A good prophet should have a very specific image of what this means and what will happen, if they are worth their salt as a prophet. When will this trampling begin, in 2002, or is this unkown? He did make on thing clear. Ony about one third will repent. Now that prediction is measurable.
Worldwide, political "harrassment" of JWs, WTS and all. Complete pressure placed upon them to compromise and conform, like all of the other church organizations of the land and around the world.
But, if I understand your question correctly, No, we DO NOT believe the "trampling" of the nations upon "Israel," for the specified period of some "42 months," will occur at the end of 2001. That is NOT what we believe.
There are even more important things that must take place before the "trampling" period begins.
One minor point. You said that Jehovah could have a prophecy fulfilled many times. Well, yes I suppose he could, but has he? If so, could you find a prophesy in the Bible that has been fulfilled many times and list each of the fulfillments?
From the above question, what am I left to assume? Does this mean, you do not believe prophecy has any merit today? Or, do you want us to convince you that Bible prophecy has merit today? Bible prophecy is worthy of our time and study...should we convince you of that?
You said you are a THIRD GENERATION JWs, right? What's wrong with you, then?
Do you have more confidence, now in Science, than in the Bible itself? Is that your problem?
So, what do you what me to do about it? Give you more faith?
Give you some of my "oil" ... my extra "oil", as the 5 foolish virgins expect of the 5 wise ones, Matt. 25th chapter?
If you don't have faith, sorry, I can't help you my friend.
Remember Luke 18:8..."will he really find the Faith?" That's the question.
Ask yourself, did Jesus have to come to "Israel" and tell them to "please believe God's Word," "have faith in God's Word people, it will surely be fulfilled..."
Sorry, friend, that's not my ministry. Luke 18:8 says: "when the son of man arrives...will he really find the FAITH." Faith.
Either you have it, or you don't.
If you do not believe...that is your problem...you don't believe the Bible, its prophecy, as God's Unfailing, Incorruptible, Inspired Word. If you feel it has no merit, no meaning pertainent to us today, then, you have made a serious decision for yourself. And, you must accept the consequences, whatever those consequences are, of your actions, in case, just in case, Jehovah sees it another way. As in Luke 18:8.
Why should we convince a 3rd generation witness of something like that...why?
Either you have faith in God's Word, or you don't...that's simple. Nobody is going to labor with you, try and convince someone that is already dedicated and baptized, someone already in a Covenant relationship with God, someone who promised God, that he would do his will UNRESERVEDLY, have faith in His Word, UNRESERVEDLY, -- and now we've got to convince you that the Bible is God's Word? That Prophecy is real, applicable to us today? Huh?
You are greatly mistaken, my friend. That is not my mission at all.
For if it were, the next thing you know, we will have to convince you that THERE IS A GOD...probably that is your next question. Really. That's not my mission...not at all.
So, then, all this talk about dates, when will this happen, and when will that happen, ... when in fact, we are really talking to a person who lacks faith in the prophetic word of God itself, to start with. A very weak and faulty premise to start with. This is not much, for me, to base a real Bible discussion upon. Someone that doesn't believe that the Bible, and its prophecies, can be relied upon, implicitly.
Thus, I don't spend my time that way...I'm not going to try to convince any baptized JW to have Faith in God...nor in His Word. Someone already in a Covenant, contractual Relationship with Jehovah God. Why should I? Someone that doubts, God's Word. A Sin. A very serious sin indeed.
If you don't believe it, then you are on your own.
In the recent past, I pointed out in my post on the Bible Research board, on "Miracles and signs"... all "Israel," is EXPECTED TO HAVE FAITH...a requirement. If spiritual "Israel" does not exhibit faith, it viewed as a "sin" before God. Indeed, a "Israel" found in the "last days," with no faith, is a "Israel" that has FAILED GOD'S TEST...no question.
Remember, to lack faith, is a "sin" in itself, a deadly one. Honestly, I believe, this is your problem. A serious problem of your own, unique doing, making. The books you read, the things you delve into, mysticals things, writings of men, thoughts of men, that contradict God's Word, His Thoughts, are satanical... Should be avoided at all cost.
So, for these reasons, and more, usually speaking, except upon rare occurrence, I usually will not spend much time on such subjects with people, wrangling over nonsensical things, like "did Adam and Eve really exist," or do you think the "flood" really occurred, scientifically speaking and so on. I don't have time for that, .. if you don't believe, then, you don't believe it, and I will leave it at that. -- See Proverbs 9:7-9
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 27 January 2001 21:29:14