My huband posed something to me yesterday that I had never even thought of before.
He said, Wouldn't it be possible that if a group <ie. Jehovahs Witnesses> Fell out of Gods favor, What would stop him from choosing another group? And he gave the example of the Israelites.
And I said "hmmmmmmmmmmm. Even so...what would stop him?"
And would the group who *thought* they had his favor even be aware, as this group would be <*is*> rather full of it's self, and it's self imposed importance.
Kind of the "let he who thinks he is standing beware" thing.
Does anyone know of any scriptures in the bible that would talk about this subject?
Thanks!
God Changing Chosen Peoples
by eyes_opened 83 Replies latest jw friends
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eyes_opened
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ianao
eyes_opened:
I am sure a poster by the name of MDS will soon post here regarding this.
Just please remember what happened to the people in WACO Texas with David Koresh, please. They were all armed and ready for armageddon. Now they are all DEAD.
(I can't spell today).
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amicus
eyes_opened,
There are a lot of scriptures that could be used in this context. I think it would be a misapplication of scripture though. I don't think the WTBTS was ever approved of by Christ or the God of the Bible. So if you are never "in favor", you can't fall "out of favor".
What I find amusing is the emphasis placed on the name "Jehovah". That name was invented in the 5th or 6th century. It wasn't used by the Israelites or the early Christians. Nobody knows how YHWH was pronounced. Maybe this was intentional on YHWH's part? Christians are supposed to focus on Christ. That's the new chain-of-command. -
eyes_opened
That's ok, I can NEVER spell And good points, ianao and amicus.
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logical
Amicus:
What I find amusing is the emphasis placed on the name "Jehovah". That name was invented in the 5th or 6th century. It wasn't used by the Israelites or the early Christians.
What is so amusing about the name we have come to know the True God by? YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, they all point to the ONE TRUE GOD. I can quote so many scriptures at you, saying He does have a name and wants it to be exhalted.
The fact is, He IS regognised by Jehovah. That is the name we have come to know him by, Jehovah identifies the TRUE GOD OF ISRAEL!
Nobody knows how YHWH was pronounced. Maybe this was intentional on YHWH's part?
See above
Christians are supposed to focus on Christ. That's the new chain-of-command.
That is simply called "Creature Worship", "Idolatry", worshipping the creation and not the creator - something CONDEMNED in the Bible. Even Christ himself pointed out that Jehovah, his Father is greater than he is.
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ianao
Hello logical.
amicus' quote:
Christians are supposed to focus on Christ. That's the new chain-of-command.
and your response:
That is simply called "Creature Worship", "Idolatry", worshipping the creation and not the creator - something CONDEMNED in the Bible. Even Christ himself pointed out that Jehovah, his Father is greater than he is.
Well, if you notice, amicus said "chain-of-command", as he recalls the scripture that tells Christians that none come to the Father but THROUGH him.
Going TO God THROUGH Jesus. Therefore, amicus would not be worshipping a creature. I also don't recall him saying that he would "worship" Jesus, do you?
Edited by - ianao on 23 January 2001 17:1:58
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MDS
Hi "eyes opened":
Your husband's comments are absolutely right. And it seems, more and more are beginning to see this point as being a VALID possibility, and possible "solution" to the WTS dilemma, the resolution to the "Wts situation."
Scriptures such as Matt. 21:43, Matt. 22:9,Matt. 8:11, 12, and Romans 11:25, 26 all confirm this idea. It is a Bible-based thought.
It seems that "Smartgirlpw" has already raised the "possibility" of such actions upon God's part, in another post under another thread. I will post the thread below.
But simply stated, God's Name People, Jehovah's Witnesses, are such, God's Chosen People because they have been ALLOWED BY GOD, to carry His Great and Holy Name upon themselves. -- See Number 6:27; Deut. 28:10; 2 Chron. 7:14; Daniel 9:19.
(1) They STARTED the "Divine Name" Movement, as history tells us, in the year of 1931. No one, no religion had done this before them, as history tells us. They started it.
(2) They are the ONLY INTERNATIONAL GROUP, truly international in scope, comparatively speaking of any note, in the Divine Name movement realm...no one, no group is so international in scope. No other Divine-Name group comes even close in covering the earth...geographically speaking.
(3) And they are clearly, the LARGEST, of such size, some 6 million by count of such size, in the "Divine Name" movement.
No, other group is more intimately associated with the Name of God, as a people, than "Jehovah's Witnesses," earthwide. In many areas, they are simply knows as those "jehova" people. They stand for God's Name. They are known by it, closely associated to it, more so, than any other religious group on earth.
They are God's Name People.Many JWs even doubt this, because of witnessing the prevalent cases of wrongdoing, misbehavior among them. Particularly the higher ups. But even so, in this way, they resemble ancient "Israel," whose religious leaders were clearly, grossly wicked and oppressive...the Pharisee, and Sadduccees.
Some of those who doubt, have been greatly influenced by ex-Governing Body member RV Franz who states his personal beliefs in his books, "Crisis of Conscience," and "In Search of Christian Freedom", stating that Jehovah's Witnesses are nothing more than any other religion on earth today, simply a cult. This is his opinion.
But there are some among Jehovah's Witnesses, that differ with this opinion. Many know that to carry God's Divine Name upon themselves, is a God-Given Privilege. So, then, privilege must be granted, from God. In turn, if granted this privilege, God would in turn, grant them a Covenant-Relationship with Him, and would expect such ones to "live up to then Name," as one of song being sang at the Kingdom Hall, says. This is a requirement from God. Sad to say, today, they are not measuring up to the requirements of this same God-given Covenant Relationship. -- Daniel 11:30
Still, the bible tells us, that if God's Name People, should go astray for any reason, and violates the terms of that special Covenant arrangement, God would be duty bound, and fully justified in administering Godly "Discipline," upon them as a nation. -- 1 Kings 8:33-53.
This God, will do, according to Bible prophecy. The Bible is clear. God will do this for the sake of the Holy Name, and NOT for the sakes of the wicked and loathsome Watchtower Society, Corporate headquarters or even the rank and file, among them. This, He does Only, only, for His Own Name sake.
Ezekiel 36:22 says:
"Therefore say to the house of Israel, This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: Not for your sakes am I doing it it, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have come. And I shall certainly SANCTIFY MY GREAT NAME, which was being profaned among the nations, which you profaned in themidst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah..."
God's saving actions toward His people, is only done, because of His Great and Holy Name is at stake. That's the only reason.
Here is the post where additional comments were made on this possibility, your husband has raised.
---posted under thread "too much faith, too much spiritual food"----
Hi "Smartgirlpw",
I believe, through that faith, He is using the appointed organization from which we all learned about Jehovah(usually)and that if and when He decides that THEY are wicked or not doing His will, then He will once again turn attention to another group...as He did in the past when the Jews rejected His son by demanding his impalement and by their statement as a group,"We have no King, but Ceasar!" in response to Pilate's Q-"Do you want me to kill your King?" (re Jesus was claimed to be King of the Jews.)
Insightful comment indeed. You said:
"...if and when He decides that THEY are wicked or not doing His Will, then He will once again turn attention to another group..."
I know you don't believe that this will really happen, and that the WTS is not quite THAT BAD and all. But, this is exactly the situation we are facing...exactly! They really are that wicked!
So, you have reached the "correct" conclusion by a process of "logical deduction of known possibilities," as found in the Holy Scriptures. They are that wicked...when you really examine the situation.
This is the solution.
Now, from what I understand, there is NO FURTHER PROPHECY IN THAT REGARD, namely that Jehovah's appointment of the "Nations being taken out as a people for His name...." would somehow deviate from His will to conduct the flock, love it as Jesus did,etc. There is, however, Scriptural basis for the prediction of "the love of the greater number cooling off" in our time, hence to correspond with a thread I read before re the large number of those who have left or were thrust out,of which I myself am a part of.
Oh, but there are...a number of prophecies...a number of them, that show precisely what you have said above. A great number of prophecies.
You are very, very close to the real "truth" of this matter...
Regarding the many "sins" of the "false prophet" WTS, the only one that prophesies falsely in the Name of God on earth today, regarding 1914, 1975 and many other false dates and false teachings, the following verses are most appropos.
Deuteronomy 28:58, 63 says:
"If you will not take care to CARRY OUT ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW that are written in this book so as to fear this glorious and fear-inspiring name, even Jehovah, your God...And it must occur that just as Jehovah exulted over you to do you good and to multiply you, so JEHOVAH WILL EXULT OVER YOU TO DESTROY YOU AND TO ANNIHILATE YOU ; and you will simply be torn away from off the soil to which you are going to take possession of it."
These words are still, just as true as when they were spoken many years ago.
God does not change. These verses apply to the JWs as a nation, the nation of "Israel" of Bible prophecy.
Take Care,
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 23 January 2001 10:48:27
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Take Care,
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 23 January 2001 18:51:6
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bjc2012
Hi Eyes-opened,
Yes, it most certainly is possible, or rather, it is certain that he will do this as His people have not kept the covenant that they entered into with Him. If you have no qualms about viewing JWs as modern-day Israel, as many people on this board do, then you can start at the beginning and go through to the end of the Bible substituting JWs each time you encounter the term "Israel" then you can see that this is exactly what will happen.
Specifically, a good scripture to begin with is Paul's words at Romans 10:19-21, where Paul quotes from Isaiah 65:1,2 and Deuteronomy 32:21. Israel, for the most part, would be replaced although Paul states in chapter 11 verse 5 that "a remnant has turned up according to choosing due to undeserved kindness." Israel in the first century was made up mostly of non-Israelites. Why do I believe that there is a modern-day fulfillment of these verses? Because, in reading the Greek Scriptures, I cannot find a complete fulfillment of all that is written in the Hebrew Scripture. And Jehovah is specific that "sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place." (Matt. 5:18). Isaiah 55:11 states: "...so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it." All of the Bible will be fulfilled.
Jehovah's Witnesses may not be a perfect people but they have had the courage to carry God's Name upon themselves and they've made some effort to live their lives in harmony with God's will. They are now, though, under grave sin as they have allowed themselves to be duped into committing idolatry and for this they must pay. Scriptures such as Zachariah 13:8,9 show that "two thirds" will be cut off and only a 'third part' will be left remaining in the land, and this 'third part' Jehovah will 'bring through the fire and refine them.' The entire nation will not be destroyed but a 'remnant' will be spared. The majority of 'modern-day Israel, at this time, will be comprised of non-Israelites as with the first century congregation.
bjc
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logical
ianao:
The way I understood Amicus' post was that
Jehovah's name doesnt matter, and He intended His name not to be known, and for people to focus on Christ, not Him.
Edited by - logical on 23 January 2001 18:49:29