by eyes_opened 83 Replies latest jw friends
larc,
Isaiah 49:1-6 applies to a modern-day deliverer for modern-day Israel, in addition this one will also be a light to the gentiles. Of course, Israel will reject him, therefore, he will go to the gentiles who will accept him and consequently replace Israel. Sounds like a repeat? Well, it is!
bjc
Larc,
You must not know very much about Jehovah. He can have information written down 2500 or even 5000 years in advance and fulfill it just as it is written. He can have it fulfilled partially at the time of its being written, then have a complete fulfillment later, however He wishes it to be done. He can have as many fulfillments as He wishes. He know humans and He is aware that one period of human existence is not different than another. Humans are humans no matter when the live. Additionally, time is under His control, not the other way around.
The Woman is Israel. Jehovah is spoken of as being her husbandly owner in verse 5 of Isaiah chapter 54. She is spoken of as having been disciplined in verses 7 and 8, but Jehovah has had mercy on her and now she is able to enjoy the blessing outlined in verses 11-17. Can you prove this was fulfilled in its entirety upon natural Israel? If not, then is it yet to be fulfilled upon still yet another Israel.
bjc
bjc,
The reason I asked you about the 49th chapter, is because MDS wrote that the scripture described his role. I wonder if you agree. If not, who is it?
If you read my previous posts, you will note that I don't care for insults. It irritates me and it doesn't prove your case. Saying that I "don't know much about Jehovah" is an assertion and an insult. Why don't you stick to rational dialogue?
You asked if I can prove if the prophesy of Isaiah was entirely fulfilled by Israel back then. If it wasn't, then Isaiah's words were not inspired and he was a false propet. Can you prove that it wasn't entirely fulfilled back then?
Larc,
I am not trying to insult you. Your statement that what Isaiah wrote 2500 years ago has no meaning to us says to me that you are limiting Jehovah to knowing only the immediate future and/or not being interested in what happens to us today. That's why I said what I did.
Yes, I agree that MDS is the one Isaiah refers to. It is something that I cannot prove to you unless you accept that Isaiah has a modern-day fulfillment.
I can find no scripture which shows that Israel ever fulfilled verses 2 and 3 of Isaiah 54 which reads: "Make the place of your tent more spacious. And let them stretch out the tent cloths of your grand tabernacle. Do not hold back. Lengthen out your tent cords, and make those tent pins of yours strong. For to the right and to the left you will break forth, and your own offspring will take possession even of the nations, and they will inhabit even the desolated cities." Israel is supposed to have great growth. What we learn about Israel from the Bible shows that she continued to get smaller and smaller as nations took over land that she had been given. In fact, when Isaiah wrote his message, Assyria had taken the 10-tribe kingdom into captivity and only Judah was left.
In the first century, Israel was dispersed to the nations and has not yet recovered. When did they ever take possession of nations? Will these verses be fulfilled today or are they just words on paper?
Jehovah assures us that his word "would not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain seccess in that for which I have sent it." Isaiah 55:11
bjc
bjc,
I am gald for you that you have a spiritual guide in MDS. Obviously, I am not convinced. I have asked several questions regarding points of clarification, which he refused to answer, because he said I was insincere. Since you are sincere, why don't you ask him these questions in private.
Both the scriptures you quote and the statements MDS makes are abiguous enough to fit a wide range of situations and outcomes. If he fixes the date of 2001 as being important, then he can take events in 2002 and say after the fact that they were fulfillment of his predictions. Psychics, fortune tellers and clairvoyants use this technique all the time, i.e., say something vague and then after an event they show how it fits, and those who are motivated to believe, do believe. (People who do this are not demon possessed they are very clever. It has been shown in many studies, that their claims fail under scientific scrutiny) What, for example, does the word "trample" mean as applied to the 42 months? A good prophet should have a very specific image of what this means and what will happen, if they are worth their salt as a prophet. When will this trampling begin, in 2002, or is this unkown? He did make on thing clear. Ony about one third will repent. Now that prediction is measurable.
One minor point. You said that Jehovah could have a prophecy fulfilled many times. Well, yes I suppose he could, but has he? If so, could you find a prophesy in the Bible that has been fulfilled many times and list each of the fulfillments?
Hi Larc,
If I may ask, are you one of Jehovah's witnesses? Just wondering. Thanks.
tfs
tfs,
Third generation, one hour pulbic talks at age 17, pioneered two years, had a minister's clasification from the draft board, accepted at Bethel, got married instead, been inactive for some time now. Go find the post started by thinker called "JW Dictionary" I think you'll be able to tell from my verbiage there that I know the in's and out's of it, plus I think you'll find it entertaining reading.
bjc,
For the wider audience of those here who believe that there will be a modern day fulfillment of the prophesy under discussion, how would you prove that MDS is the one. I am sure you could help them, even it you can't help me. I think you owe it to them to give thoughtful consideration to this important, indeed, pivotal question.
Larc,
I was convinced because of the 'ring of truth,' that is, the explanations made sense. I don't need to have a person perform miracles in order to be convinced that he has been sent by Jehovah. This was not what convinced Peter, James, John, etc. It was Jesus' explanations of the scriptures. These men recognized that they were hearing things that the Pharisees had no idea about. I had known for some time, before I left the organization, that the WTS could not give satisfactory explanation to so much in the prophetic books. I thought that since we were close to the end, by their calculations, that Jehovah would soon give them the correct understanding.
Well, when I learned that the 607-1914 teaching was incorrect and I spoke to the elders about it, they were not willing to see that I had some valid concerns. I stated to them that I could not teach a lie, they tried to show me that there should be not division among God's people. Nothing was said to prove their case but if I didn't fall in line they were going to disfellowship me because I disagreed with them. I suppose that was when I realized that something more serious was wrong and maybe Jehovah was not using them.
Several others in other congregations were having the same problem as I and we decided to get together and see what we could learn about the bible on our own and this individual was among this group. We got down to some serious study, purchasing all kinds of bible study aids that we could afford. As the study progressed, it became apparent that Jehovah was not giving all of us understanding, just one of us. So as this individual begin explaining the prophetic books to us and none could refute what he said and, believe you me, we tried. Our little group continued with intense studying and it just became apparent that this individual was clearly heads and shoulders above us all in unravelling 'sacred secrets.' So we began paying attention to what he was saying. All of his explanations were not perfect in the beginning but we continued searching and finding things in the bible which we would present to him and challenge him to explain. Which he did and a picture begin to form.
The one thing that so impressed me was learning the Jehovah was not going to destroy billions of people on the basis of what Jehovah's Witness did or were unable to do because of governmental objections. The reason being was that they, the Witnesses, were not righteous in Jehovah's eyes themselves. They were, in actuality, in idolatry; they were worshipping the GB. That was a hard realization but I was finally able to understand how it was possible. If you know a teaching is a lie and you go along with it just because they tell you to do so then they have become your master, the one you obey, nevermind how Jehovah feels about lies.
Well, anyway, when we got to the book of Revelation and learned that it cannot be explained in a linear manner, that it is written in a circular manner, this individual then begin helping us to understand how everything in this book applies to Jehovah's Witnesses. That was it for me. I was 100% convinced that he was getting his information from Jehovah. No one has ever been able to satisfactorily explain this bible book and everybody has tried. You know how unsatisfactory the WTS' explanation is.
It's been ten years since we started, and we are continuing to learn. Sure we were most interested in time, when would all these things to happen. But this was never stressed as being important. But you have to get some idea of time as you go through the bible because Jehovah is the great timekeeper.
We always have known how important Jehovah's Name is to him and so we concluded that the time when JWs took that name must have some significance. So, since this occurred in 1931 under JF Rutherford, who everyone agrees was not a very spiritual person, and since we know that seventy years seems to be a time period that Jehovah refers to often, and seventy years from 1931 is 2001, we concluded that something important would occur especially since these same people are committing idolatry while carrying the Name. Would Jehovah react to this bringing of reproach on His name by His own people after seventy years? Well....
I am simply relating to you the basic reasons to explain why I am convinced that Jehovah has sent someone to 'become my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back even the safeguarded ones of Israel...and to be a light to the Gentiles that my salvation may come to be to the extremity of the earth" (Isaiah 49:6)
I firmly believe that Jehovah is now acting to accomplish this and if I have to stand alone in this belief, it won't bother me. I am 100% convinced that this is truth. I have read information of this board and any other board that I found and I remain solid that I have truth, finally!
I know that this is not enough to convince everybody, but this is my position and I intend to defend it. There is so much to learn and I cannot possible tell you everything. You have to be willing to read the Bible and ask questions. Obviously you don't believe that the WTS has the answers.
bjc
We always have known how important Jehovah's Name is to him and so we concluded that the time when JWs took that name must have some significance. So, since this occurred in 1931 under JF Rutherford, who everyone agrees was not a very spiritual person, and since we know that seventy years seems to be a time period that Jehovah refers to often, and seventy years from 1931 is 2001, we concluded that something important would occur especially since these same people are committing idolatry while carrying the Name. Would Jehovah react to this bringing of reproach on His name by His own people after seventy years? Well....
This is not to say the "all" heck will break loose this year, but several significant events do appear to be in the making.
Jr
