Relationship Issues: Boundaries, Freedom of Choice and Codependency

by 00DAD 83 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Quendi

  So much pain in the stories shared in this space…so much!! I read the experiences of flipper and panhandlegirl. I reflect on my own life in the JW cult. I think about the friends and family I have who are still trapped there and marvel at my good fortune in having gotten out damaged but alive.

  My friends, thank you for all you have shared with me in this thread, elsewhere on the JWN board and also through private correspondence. I am both honored and humbled by your company and want to wish all of you only the very best. I can’t begin to count the blessings I have had since I began walking my own path and pursuing my own vision. This forum has been a wonderful resource for me because I have learned so much from those of you who have been loving, brave and courageous enough to share your experiences. I know that “confession is good for the soul”, but believe me, many others have benefited from what has been posted here. The fact that more than 700 views have occurred for this thread is testimony to this.

  “Today is the first day of the rest of your life,” was an advertising slogan a certain breakfast cereal used years ago. Let’s keep that in mind. As for me, I have more years behind me than ahead of me, but I am determined to make the remaining ones the best they can be. From what I have read in this thread, I know that is also the resolve of everyone else because that is the right choice.

  Quendi
• 

  TD

  If it's conditional, it ain't love!

  I've thought about this for a week and depending on how the term 'Unconditional Love' is defined, I don't think I would agree.

  'Unconditional Love' to me, means that you love the person with absolutely no strings attached and regardless of what you get in return.

  I would hope that God, if he exists loves his human creation unconditionally and parents should love their children unconditionally. But that is not love between two peers. That is the love of a guardian or steward. I would agree that the JW parent organization fails miserably in this regard.

  However most human relationships where 'Love' is said to exist involve at least two peers and because of that, these relationshpips include a tangle of commitments, obligations and promises both implicit and explicit.

  Take marriage for example. Would a wife continue to love a husband who physically abuses her? Would a husband continue to love a wife who engages in a string of affairs with no remorse? Would a wife continue to love a husband who refuses all non-sexual contact? Would a husband continue to love a wife who refuses all sexual contact? Of course you could say that you still loved an abusive spouse in the sense that one would love their enemies, but the love that exists between a husband and wife is much more than that.

  Or take friendship for example. Would you continue to love a friend who no longer wanted to be friends? If they no longer would give you the time of day? What if they stole from you? What if they spread lies about you? Again, you could say that you love them in the sense that one would even love their enemies, but the love that exists between true friends is much more than that.
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  ziddina

  Hmmm....

  Just looking at the opening post right now, but a thought occurred to me...

  I recall some research done in psychological circles that indicated that the POWER in a relationship - whether distributed evenly [the ideal situation] or unevenly distributed [the typical situation in most dysfunctional/destructive relationships] was actually the primary indicator as to whether the people in the relationship were able to interact in a healthy manner.

  Of course, when dealing with ANY sort of control freak, be it Jim Jones, the Watchtower corporation or Amway "Motivational Organizations", the 'offender' will attempt to manipulate the situation so that the 'victim' will be a compliant accomplice in their own victimization.

  Lemme see if I can find some links...
• 

  ziddina

  This link provides a PDF from the University of Amsterdam, and it's very deep...

  http://www.discourses.org/OldArticles/Structures%20of%20discourse%20and%20structures%20of%20power.pdf

  And here's a link to a series of links which came up when I searched for: "Power Structures in Personal Relationships"

  http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=power+structures+in+personal+relationships&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=wHA6UMDGI8jnyAHBo4Fo&ved=0CBwQgQMwAA

  I can see I have my reading cut out for me, this afternoon!! And I haven't even finished that website explaining why Amway is "cult-like", nor my book on Thomas Jefferson!!

  Anyway, hope someone finds these links interesting...

  Zid
• 

  00DAD

  TD, you raise some interesting points. Check out this thread which RipVanWinkle spun off of this one:

  • Unconditional Love-How would you describe it?

  Also, keep in mind the context of my statement which you quoted was specifically in reference to WT/JW teachings and culture.

  Ziddy, I look forward to reading your links and your further contributing to this parallel thread!

  00DAD
• 

  TD

  TD, you raise some interesting points. Check out this thread which RipVanWinkle spun off of this one:

  Read it. Similar statements are made on that thread and I have to agree with Zid on this one.

  Also, keep in mind the context of my statement which you quoted was specifically in reference to WT/JW teachings and culture.

  Understood. That's why I was careful to distinguish relationships between two peers from other types of relationships. The unconditional love of a parent or guardian can go in only one direction if need be. Most of us who have raised children have experienced periods during their adolescence when they didn't seem to love us much at all. We loved them anyway. Similarly, the pastoral love of a spiritual shepherd should be unconditional as in, 'Love the sinner, hate the sin.' We all know that the pastoral interest of JW 'Ministers' is a farce. It's a system of abuse and emotional blackmail.

  But love between two equals, like a husband and wife is a mutual love that goes both directions. It can't go in only one direction. -At least, not for very long...
• 

  Quendi

  Relating all of this to JWs and the WTS, I can only fall back on what a now departed friend once told me. “Organizations cannot love people. Only people can love other people. The problem many Witnesses have is that they expect a faceless organization to act like a real human being and that is something it is quite incapable of.”

  The organization promotes this false thinking with the way it portrays itself. “Faithful and discreet slave”, “spiritual mother”, “Jehovah’s wife” and other images give believers the idea that they can have a personal relationship with the hierarchy and by extension with God himself. That’s because these terms give the image of a real person who is divinely sanctioned. So Witnesses believe their own individual circumstances will be understood and accommodated in the same way another person would. That can’t happen because even appointed overseers have a rulebook they must adhere to which allows little room for individuality. None of the images the organization wants to project are the truth.

  The situation is aggravated when grossly unqualified men are appointed to positions of leadership. Given no training in even the rudiments of psychology and counseling, they can’t perform the needed tasks. Overseers buy into the lie that the holy spirit is behind them and so “worldly” knowledge isn’t necessary to be a good shepherd, and that holy spirit will “fill in the blanks” and overcome any deficiencies. The result is the arrogance, stupidity, abuse and mistreatment that characterize so many dealings between overseers and individual Witnesses.

  Boundaries are violated because their existence isn’t recognized in the first place. Those who protest against being spiritually and emotionally battered are labeled as people with a “bad attitude” or who possess “independent thinking”, both code phrases for the charge of apostasy. And if recalcitrant ones can’t be coerced back into the fold, then they are disfellowshipped, the Witness equivalent of execution.

  To my mind, though, many of the problems that have arisen among Jehovah’s Witnesses are because they have completely gotten away from the real spirit of Christianity. They started out in the 1870s as simple Bible Students who wanted to learn more about the Bible in anticipation of Christ’s hoped for return in 1914. From that beginning they have mushroomed into this oppressive cult that is all about controlling others down to the most intimate aspect of their lives. Individuality and personal freedom have been sacrificed on the altar of conformity and orthodoxy by men who have long ago lost their love for God, if indeed they ever had it. The only way for things to improve is to completely dismantle the WTS.

  Quendi
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  rip van winkle

  Thanks Quendi- It was a long time ago. I'm not big on "What ifs" because it's futile. Can't change the past!!! Life's circumstances changed for me a great deal. I lost the good health that I had preWitness. ( I have been taking a language course for the last few weeks!!!)

  00Dad - No one should make decisions for another person. That is a boundary violation. It's psychological and emotional trespassing. But the violation is worse when it comes from someone that allegedly is speaking for God, but in reality is a complete fraud and a sham. We can't go back and change the past. But we can learn from it. Certainly we all made some bad decisions based on trusting people that we now know were unworthy of our trust. Lesson learned

  So, true, 00Dad! I definitely learned. In my world, before the WTS, I was not someone who deferred my own will. And years later,when there was interference in my life again from a particular elder, and JW "friends", I quickly put an end to it. Whatever my decisions in life-good or bad- I own them. I take that responsibility. I would never give my power away again.(I plan on doing the things that bring joy back into my life as when I was preWitness.)

  TD- on my thread I asked: Unconditional love, how would you describe it?- To me it doesn;t mean to be a doormat. It doesn't mean being abused from an abuser. It doesn't mean to be enabler. It doesn't mean to be co-dependent. What I was saying is that I do believe it exists and that I have received it and I have also given it without expecting something in return. But, I will say, as I said on my post, that it's an ideal. It is hard to put into practice as we are imperfect, but there are principles that can be applied in one's life. And so back to 00Dad and his post- and having freedom to make one's own choices.

  To Quote Khalil Gibran-Your living is determined not so much by what life brings to you as by the attitude you bring to life; not so much by what happens to you as by the way your mind looks at what happens.
• 

  TD

  TD- on my thread I asked: Unconditional love, how would you describe it?-

  I read you definition and don't disagree with it.

  But I would point out that each of these statements represents conditionality:

  doesn't mean to be a doormat.

  doesn't mean being abused from an abuser.

  doesn't mean to be enabler

  doesn't mean to be co-dependent.

  Certainly there are conditions attached to love.
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  rip van winkle

  TD- you can still love the person and not agree with the behaviour. And when I said-not being abused- from your scenario- is just that. The love is not conditional. We cannot change other people's behaviours, that's the acceptance part. Accepting doesn't mean that we condone it or agree with it. Still Thinking loved her alcholic partner, but that relationship was destroying her. A person who love's unconditionally has to include themself in the equation. They have to love themself enough to not allow another person's destructive actions to infect, control or destroy them.