The title of this forum should be changed to Judas' to accurately reflect it's makeup.

by Theocratic Sedition 169 Replies latest jw friends

  • cedars

    Theocratic Sedition

    First off, there's no educational organization on this earth that hasn't had to adjust it's understanding from time to time, and the Slave Class isn't infallible.

    What irritates most people on this forum is that the above excuse is wheeled out whenever the organization's teachings are proven to be wrong, as they often are.

    However, publishers aren't allowed to think of the Slave Class's teachings as "fallible" and therefore open to individual interpretation when they are first published, otherwise they could potentially be disfellowshipped and shunned by their loved ones. The only ones allowed to disagree with the teachings of the Slave Class are the Governing Body when they produce so-called "new light".

    You can't have it both ways. Either you are God's chosen organization under the guidance of his holy spirit, in which case you had BETTER get it right 100% of the time, or you aren't. Simple as.


  • Splash

    For a flip flop or two, try:

    ORGAN TRANSPLANTS1967-1980: prohibited as "cannibalism" WT 11/15/67 p.702
    Since 1980 - permitted WT 3/15/80 p.31

    11/15/1967 p702: "Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. "

    3/15/1980 p31: "Some Christians might feel that taking into their bodies any tissue or body part from another human is cannibalistic. "

    I wonder why "some Christians might feel that way"....? This is the Society's method of introducing "new light" and dismissing old "light" as opinions of members.

    VACCINATIONS1931-1952 Prohibited as being a "direct violation of the everlasting covenant." Golden Age 2/4/31 p.293
    Since 1952 - permitted WT 12/15/52 p.764 and AWAKE! 8/22/65 p.20

    HEMOGLOBINUp to 2000 not allowed:

    Some Christians have occasionally checked the labels on packaged foods, since many governments require that ingredients be listed. And they may choose to do so regularly with any product that they have reason to believe might contain blood. It would be right, of course, to avoid products that listed things such as blood, blood plasma, plasma, globin (or globulin) protein, or hemoglobin (or globin) iron. w92 10/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers

    After 2000 Allowed:

    Depending on the condition of the patient, physicians might prescribe red cells, white cells, platelets, or plasma. Jehovah’s Witnesses hold that accepting whole blood or any of those four primary components violates God’s law.

    Other medicines are coming along that involve (at least initially) extracts from blood components. Such therapies are not transfusions of those primary components; they usually involve parts or fractions thereof. Should Christians accept these fractions in medical treatment? We cannot say. The Bible does not give details, so a Christian must make his own conscientious decision before God. w00 6/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers

    WORSHIPPING JESUS?up to 1954 "YES" -

    Pastor C.T.Russell taught that Jesus was to be worshiped:
    “Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty?
    Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. … It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man."
    Zion’s Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216

    From 1954 "NO" - Questions from readers:
    “Should we worship Jesus?—G. B., Ethiopia.
    " ...the answer to the above question must be that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven. Our worship is to go to Jehovah God..."WT 1954 Jan 1 p.31

    ORGANIZATION - ITS IMPORTANCE1893 - No organization today WT 1893 p.266
    1894 - Not part of the Lord's plan. WT 12/1/1894 p. 384
    1895 - Beware of organization WT 9-15-1895 p.216
    1955 - Respect the organization Qualified to be Ministers, 1955, p.380
    1957 - Obedience to organization. WT 5/1/57 p.274
    1972 - Submit to headship (Governing Body) WT 12-15-72 p.755
    1983 - Essential part of the Lord's plan WT 2/15/83 p.12

    PYRAMIDOLOGYPrior to 1928 - "God's Stone Witness and Prophet" Used to predict dates Thy Kingdom Come, 1891, p.313, 16, 17, 342, 362
    Since 1928 - Satan's Bible; not God's Stone Witness. WT 11/15/28 p.344
    1928 - Satan's Bible WT 11-15-28 p.841
    1930 - Just a pile of stones Light II, 1930, p.286

    ROMANS 13:1 - WHO ARE THE "SUPERIOR AUTHORITIES?"1886 - Earthly governments - Divine Plan of the Ages, 1886, p.266
    1889 - Earthly governments - Time Is At Hand, 1889, p.81
    1932 - 1963: God and Christ - Vindication, Vol. 3, 1932, p.13 and The Truth Shall Make You Free, 1943, p.312
    1952 - God and Christ - Let God Be True, 1952, p.248
    1959 - God and Christ - Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, p.91
    1963 - Earthly political governments - WT 1/1/63 p.31
    1975 - Earthly political governments - 1975 Yearbook, p.238

    1980 - Earthly political governments - WT 5/15/80 p.4

    THE REVELATION NAMES "APOLLYON" AND "ABADDON"Refers to Satan - The Finished Mystery, p.159
    Refers to Jesus Christ - Then Is Finished the Mystery of God, p.232

    WHO IS "THE TRUE LORD?"Jesus Christ WT 9-15-83 p.19
    Jehovah God WT 7-1-89 p.30

    THE "ALPHA AND OMEGA"OF REVELATION 22:12Refers to Jehovah God - AWAKE! 8/22/78 p.28
    Refers to Jesus Christ - WT 10/1/78 p.15
    ( A major change in just 2 months!)

    WHO IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL?Not the Son of God - WT November, 1879, p.4
    Jesus not an angel - WT March, 1883, p.456
    The Pope of Rome - The Finished Mystery, 1926 Edition, p.188
    Jesus Christ, the Son of God - Reasoning From the Scriptures, 1985, p.218

    1972 NO Organization for Kingdom Preaching..., 1972, p.172
    1974 YES WT 8/1/74 pp.464,465

    1981 NO WT 9/15/81 p.25

    1952 NO WT 6/1/52 p.338
    1965 YES WT 8/1/65 p.479
    1988 NO WT 8/1/88 p.31
    1988 YES "You Can Live Forever..." p.179 (Old Edition)
    1988 NO "You Can Live Forever..." p.179 (New Edition)
    1988 YES Insight On The Scriptures, Vol.2, p.985
    1988 NO Revelation - Its Grand Climax p.273

    DANIELS IMAGE - 10 TOESw59 5/15 p.313 ar.36 ('10 TOES' HAS A MEANING)

    The number ten being a Biblical number symbolizing earthly completeness, the ten toes picture all such coexisting powers and governments.

    w78 6/15 p.13 Human Governments Crushed by God’s Kingdom ('10 TOES' HAS NO MEANING)

    There does not appear to be any prophetic significance to the image’s having ten toes. This is a natural human feature, just as the image has two arms, two legs, and so forth.

    w85 7/1 p.31 Questions From Readers ('10 TOES' HAS A MEANING)

    Various views have been expressed about the ten “toes.” But since “ten” is often used in the Bible to signify completeness as to things on earth, the ten “toes” appear logically to represent the entire global system of rulership at the culmination of the days

    w12 6/15 p.14 Jehovah Reveals What "Must Shortly Take Place"('10 TOES' HAS NO MEANING)

    Para 11. when describing the image, Daniel does not mention the number of toes. Therefore, the number seems no more significant than the fact that the image had multiple arms, hands, fingers, legs, and feet.

    WHEN WAS THE 'SECOND PRESENCE' OF JESUS CHRIST?1874 - Harp of God, 1921, p.234
    1874 - WT 1/1/24 p.5
    1874 - Creation, 1927, p.289
    1874 - Prophecy, 1929, p.65
    1914 - AWAKE! 4/22/57 pp. 11,12
    1914 - From Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained, 1958, p.170
    1914 - God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years..., 1973, pp. 209,210
    1914 - You Can Live Forever..., 1982, p.147

    The Society said in the Watchtower issue of WT 1/15/93 p.5 "The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honest hearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus' presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914."

    "CONSISTENTLY"? After examining the above quotes, is this true?

    WHO IS THE "FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?"a. All anointed Watchtower members - JWS in the Divine Purpose, p.68
    b. Brother Russell filled the office of special "servant" - WT 3/1/23 p.6
    c. From 1896 to 1916 - Watchtower founder, Charles Taze Russell The Finished Mystery, 1917, p.5
    d. Charles Taze Russell - The finished Mystery, 1917, p.53
    e. Spiritual Israelites: the 'anointed' Society members - From Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained, 1958, p.193
    f. The Watchtower admits earlier view that Russell was considered "the Servant" Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, 1959, p.69
    g. A "class" of individuals - 1975 Yearbook, p.88


    Prior to 1923: The separating of the sheep and the goats is a future event taking place after the tribulation.
    1923-1995: The separating of the sheep and the goats began in 1914 and is currently taking place.
    1995-current: The separating of the sheep and the goats is a future event taking place after the tribulation.


  • 00DAD

    TS: the gaul of you God haters

    Don't confuse our anger at feeling betrayed by the hypocrisy and hurtful policies of the WTBTS with hating God. They are not one and the same.

    TS: First off, there's no educational organization on this earth that hasn't had to adjust it's understanding from time to time, and the Slave Class isn't infallible.

    First off (to use your expression), educational organizations don't claim to be The One True Religion on Earth!

    TS: But to say they've flip flopped is nothing more than exaggeration.

    Secondly, I'll assume you don't know, many JWs don't. You need a history lesson.

    For starters I'd recommend reading Paul Grundy's excellent, detailed analyses of several areas of Changed Teaching by the WTBTS:

    Changed Watchtower Teachings

    In particular, you may want to consider the changes concerning JW/WT beliefs about the meaning of the word "generation":

    • Changes to the Generation Teaching - JWs are currently on the 5th change to this core doctrine. BTW, the "understanding" of WHO the generation consists of is now on its 3rd flip-flop:
      • Worldly people - Pre 1927
      • Anointed - 1925 - 1951
      • Worldly people - 1951 - 2008
      • Anointed - 2008 to present

    Another series of Flip-flops concerns whether or not the Sodomites will be resurrected:

    That one also went back and forth about 5 times.

    Have fun learning TTATT!

    Be prepared to have your world rocked.


  • minimus

    Splash, you know the lite gets brighter and brighter, right?

  • Splash

    It's more like a disco in the KHall these days


    Alright, I'm listening, when has the Watchtower EVER flip flopped?..

    Every Time They`re Wrong..

    .......................... ...OUTLAW

  • 00DAD

    Minimus, I know you're being sarcastic but TS might not get it.

    To TS: Light betting gradually brighter is NOT the same as a light being turned on and off again and again. Read Proverbs 4:18 in context and you'll see that it has nothing to do with how the WTBTS applies it to their "understanding" of scriptural truths. It's an illustration that is misapplied and doesn't fit the history of the actual changes of doctrine and practices among JWs. It just doesn't.

  • Splash

    Hmm, some more :


    The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom."

    Watchtower 1984 March 1 pp.18-19 "Some of that "generation" could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that "the end" is much closer than that!"

    Let Your Kingdom Come 1981 p.11 in our 20th century, we have come to the time for harvest ? "a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels"!

    Watchtower 1989 January 1 p.12 "He was laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century. "

    Awake 1982 (Box inside front cover, printed in every magazine)

    "Most importantly, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new order before the generation that saw the events of 1914 C.E. passes away."

    Awake Nov 1995 (Box inside front cover, printed in every magazine)

    Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things


    "A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. "New light" never extinguishes older "light" but adds to it." Charles Russell in Zion's Watchtower, Feb. 1881, p.3

    "It is a serious matter to represent God and Christ in one way, then find that our understanding of the major teachings and fundamental doctrines of the Scriptures was in error, and then after that, to go back to the very doctrines that, by years of study, we had thoroughly determined to be in error. Christians cannot be vacillating - 'wishy-washy' - about such fundamental teachings. What confidence can one put in the sincerity or judgment of such persons?" WT 5/15/76 p.298

    "However, it may have seemed to some as though that path has not always gone straight forward. At times explanations given by Jehovah's visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case. This might be compared to what is known in navigational circles as "tacking." By maneuvering the sails, the sailors can cause a ship to go from right to left, back and forth,..." WT 12/1/81 p.27

    But then:

    " run "not uncertainly" means that to every observer it should be very evident where the runner is heading. The Anchor Bible renders it "not on a zigzag course." Wt 8/1/92 p.17

    Yet this right to left "zigzag course" is the very direction that the Society has given itself permission to take!

    Now you may just dismiss all of this as apostate, but look again at where all these quotations are from. What exactly are you calling apostate?


  • cedars

    I apologise folks, but I sense it's time to wheel out... THE MAKEWEIGHT SCENARIO!!

    Here it is...

    The Society frequently uses three scriptures to impress upon Jehovah’s Witnesses their teaching of “increased light”. These are as follows:

    Into the path of the wicked ones do not enter, and do not walk straight on into the way of the bad ones. Shun it, do not pass along by it; turn aside from it, and pass along.For they do not sleep unless they do badness, and their sleep has been snatched away unless they cause someone to stumble. For they have fed themselves with the bread of wickedness, and the wine of acts of violence is what they drink. But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established. The way of the wicked ones is like the gloom; they have not known at what they keep stumbling.” (Proverbs 4:14-19, New World Translation)

    “Consequently we have the prophetic word [made] more sure; and YOU are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in YOUR hearts. For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.” (2 Peter 1:19-21, New World Translation)

    “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”And I saw, I Daniel, and, look! there were two others standing, one on the bank here of the stream and the other on the bank there of the stream. Then one said to the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of the wonderful things?” And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.” Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?” And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.” (Daniel 12:4-10, New World Translation)

    Unquestionably, the scripture in Proverbs 4:18 is the most frequently used of the above three when driving home the idea of “increasing light”. However, the context of the scripture clearly shows that the “path of the righteous ones” is merely analogous of the favorable consequences enjoyed by righteous people in comparison with “wicked ones”. Bible prophecy or even “God’s word” is mentioned nowhere in this scripture. The “prophetic word” in 2 Peter 1:19 is a “lamp shining in a dark place” – it neither brightens nor dims. Daniel 12 describes the wicked ones failing to understand his prophecy, but only the “ones having insight” understanding. Indeed, according to this verse, whether or not bible prophecies are understood seems to be an indicator of whether or not the one “roving about” is wicked or righteous! There is certainly no room for changes in interpretation, or going back to an original idea. You either understand, or you don’t.

    The truth is, when read in their full context, none of the above three commonly used scriptures describe a scenario in which Jehovah God would use his holy spirit to knowingly and deliberately issue false information to his worshippers as a “makeweight” until true information is revealed at a later stage. This is simply not how the “God of truth” goes about doing things in the scriptures. (Psalm 31:5) Rather, when God wants his servants to know something, he tells them unequivocally and with no ambiguity or innuendo. In the case of a prophecy, for example, the words of a true prophet speaking on behalf of Jehovah are said to always come true without fail. The bible even tells us that you can identify a false prophet simply by noting whether the words he has spoken in Jehovah’s name have come true or not. (Deu. 18:20-22)

    Faced with the evidence, there is therefore no scriptural reason for believing in the Society’s teaching of increasing light. Either the Society speaks as God’s representative in all things, or not at all. They must choose for themselves, as must their readers.

    In reality, the “increasing light” teaching provides a convenient escape hatch whenever the Society is confronted with evidence of past teachings that are either suspect or downright misleading. It also allows the Society to change their prophetic interpretations whenever history proves the previous teachings to be false. However, wherever the “increasing light” doctrine came from, it most certainly doesn't originate from the bible – that much is clear. The bible has simply been misquoted in a number of places in such a way as to apparently lend support to the notion. In reality, the bible speaks clearly and unequivocally of those who speak falsely in Jehovah’s name, and its judgment of such ones is far from flattering.


  • undercover

    First off, there's no educational organization on this earth that hasn't had to adjust it's understanding from time to time, and the Slave Class isn't infallible. But to say they've flip flopped is nothing more than exaggeration.

    Well, most "educational organizations" don't claim to be spirit directed by Jehovah, the WT god, so when non spirit directed schools have to adjust it's more acceptable than when an organization that claims to be God's Earthly Organization has to make 'adjustments'.

    Since the Organization has claimed to be spirit directed, at what point do you ascribe it's adjustments (read: failings) to their infallibity as opposed to the entity that supposedly directed them to promote failed teachings?

    Truth is truth. If something is taught as Truth later becomes oboslete, was it instead a lie? A black/white question to be sure, but one has to go that route when dealing with an organization that laid the ground rules as such. Us/them. Good/bad. Jehovah's organization/Satan's world.

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