This site: Jehovah's Witnesses refute! Deals with apostate accusations

by Terry 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Finkelstein

    I wonder because, among other reasons, isn't the existence of these kinds of pro-JW sites frowned upon by the Watchtower Society?

    One must keep in mind that there 7 million JWS about on the planet, therefore one or two going rouge would be not surprising.

    One must also keep in mind the evasive tactics any and most devout JWs embark upon when protecting the image of their lofty organization.

    Propagating half truths is a big part of this insincere game.

  • Balaamsass

    It would be great if a couple of the more IT "talented" Ex-JWs here put on the old JW hat and made a "PRO JW SITE". Take ALL the embarrasing accusations against WTBTS and use OFFICIAL excerpts from WTBTS publications to answer them. ( with a small dash of humor).

  • besty

    what balaamsass said

    maybe cedars could make a section on his site with links to all the pro-JW sites :-)

  • cedars

    darth frosty

    Anyone read the refutation of harboring pedophiles?!?

    The pedophile (or "pedophiliac"??) article is atrocious. I think even the Society would be embarrassed - particularly in the admission that two Governing Body members were removed for homosexuality! Maybe that's one of the "facts" that does not "reflect the official view of the Society".

    In short, the article provides no "refutation" of anything - merely a bullish insistence that the "two witness" rule prescribed under the Mosaic Law should still apply in determining guilt in the modern Christian era. Presumably, therefore, we brothers should all still be circumcising our sons?

    The best defence they can offer is to say that by encouraging bible principles the organization lessens the number of instances of child molestation!! It's truly cringe-worthy reasoning. It wouldn't surprise me if the Watchtower heavies intervene and force them to take the pages down.


  • steve2

    I could be convinced the site has been developed by JWs. On the other hand, the JW style of writing and refutation is very easily parodied. The defense of the 2 witness rule is ripe for parody. In the meantime, I'm assuming it has been developed by pro-JWs. It would be an embarrassment to the Watchtower though - I suspect.

  • jwfacts

    I always get a bit worried when I hear of a site like this, until reading it. The reasoning is always shockingly poor. For instance the discussion about Blood transfusions and Bulgaria. They justify that there were no lies presented to the Bulgarian government, since the Society does not enforce the blood rules, but rather elders do.

    "Therefore, it is completely true the Society does not control or sanction wrongdoers. This is done by the local elders."

    I don't think anyone other than JWs reading this information would be impressed by the lines of reasoning.

  • Terry

    Collateral damage comes from answering accusations.



    Most of the so-called apostates in the first 4 centuries c.e. are known only because Apologists quoted their (destroyed) works verbatim in

    defending against their heresy! So, even though the heretical writings were burned we still have the quoted arguments in detail!!

  • Leolaia

    I think this person is an apostate in the making. He or she is thinking about the issues they've read on websites like this one. The immediate reaction is denial. And there is some outright denial. But it looks like the author is trying to think about some of these matters and is trying to deal with them personally. I kind of went through a similar process. Originally in high school I was a pro-JW apologist and tried to disprove things when I heard about it. I went through a process of initially thinking the claims were ridiculous on their face, to being troubled by them and recognizing genuine problems, and then finally realizing that things were not what I initially thought. I wonder if this person is going through something similar.

  • Leolaia

    The article on 1925 and Beth Sarim is interesting. The author denies that Rutherford was a false prophet by saying that Rutherford did not claim to be inspired and that he did not write "in the name of Jehovah". At the same time, while the author appeals to the usual "brighter light" justification, he or she does recognize that what was taught about 1925 was a "false teaching": "The false doctrine around 1925 was indeed an ordeal for many people and not everybody was able to endure".

    This sounds like a bit of cognitive dissonance. And the author has no idea the extent to which Rutherford was dogmatic and claimed in the Watchtower that 1925 and the other dates were of divine origin. Although Rutherford denied being a prophet, he specifically said that the dates were revealed by God through inspiration of his Holy Spirit.

    "The year 1914 stands out today emblazoned on the escutcheon of history as a date that can no longer be questioned by anyone. And just so sure as we are here this afternoon you will see that another date will stand out just as prominently. And what date is that? I am not a prophet, but I reach this conclusion from a careful examination of the prophecies ... and that date if you please is nineteen hundred twenty-five.....To many of you it may sound presumptuous for me to announce with boldness, as we have done in this case, that millions of people now living on this earth will never die; but when you have heard the evidence and carefully considered it, I do not believe you will call me presumptuous" (15 April 1920 Watchtower, p. 127)

    "When this subject was first announced, the British brethren, following their usual course of conservatism, stated it thus: 'Millions Now Living May [italics theirs] Never Die'. But now you can hear every one of them say: 'Millions Now Living Will [italics theirs] Never Die'. Suppose we should be wrong in the chronology and that the kingdom will not be fully set up in 1925. Suppose that we were ten years off, and that it would be 1935 before restitution blessings began. Without a doubt there are now millions of people on the earth who will be living fifteen years from now; and we could with equal confidence say that 'Millions Now Living Will Never Die'. Whether it be 1925 or 1935, restitution blessings must soon begin, as shown from all the evidence; and when that time comes, all who respond obediently to the new arrangement shall be blessed with life, liberty, and happiness" (15 October 1920 Watchtower, pp. 310).

    "We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925....The apostle James assures us that 'if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that give to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.' We believe that promise and daily petition for heavenly wisdom and grace to be guided aright. We also believe that the prayers of the saints ascend daily to the throne of the heavenly grace for divine guidence as to what shall appear in THE WATCH TOWER, and we are very appreciative of that fact....It is on this line of reckoning that the dates 1874, 1914, and 1918 were located; and the Lord placed the stamp of his seal upon 1914 and 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure...There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914. The fact that all the things that some looked for in 1914 did not materialize does not alter the chronology one whit. Noting the date marked so prominently, it is very easy for the finite mind to conclude that all the work to be done must center about it, and thus many are inclined to anticipate more than has been really foretold. Thus it was in 1844, in 1874, in 1878 as well as in 1914 and 1918. Looking back we can now easily see that those dates were clearly indicated in Scripture and doubtless intended by the Lord to encourage his people, as they did, as well as to be a means of testing and sifting when all that some expected did not come to pass. That all that some expect to see in 1925may not transpire that year will not alter the date one whit more than in the other cases....The results following the dates of 1918 and 1921 indicate more and more distinctly that they were turning-points or mile-stones on the chronological highway, and clearly foreknown and foretold by the Designer of the Divine Plan of the Ages....This is the time of God's vengeance against Satan's empire, visible and invisible. He has caused to be written and published the truth concerning Satan's empire. He has placed this at the disposal of the truly consecrated and invited them to particpate in witnessing to the world against Satan's empire, both visible and invisible. Therefore the opportunity has come to all of the consecrated to do something toward making known this message, particularly that which is contained in the literture put forth by the Society. But some ask, Why continue to use the subject "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"? Why not preach about something else? The reason is this: The Lord himself set forth the evidence that would be apparent at the end of the world....The time for the deliverance of the world of mankind is at hand; hence millions now living who will obey the Lord will not die." (15 May 1922 Watchtower, p. 147-150, 154).

    "There is a well known law in mathematics called the 'law of probabilities'. Applications of this law are frequent in everyday life in settling matters of doubt. In a family of children, if a certain kind of mischief is committed, the probabilities — indeed the certainty — are that it was done by a certain one, and that the others assuredly did not do it. If some peculiar damage is done by night to a single house, then by the law of probabilities it may have been a pure accident; if done to two houses in the same manner it probably was not accidental but by design of some person; but if done three or more houses in the same manner it passes out of the possibility of accident into the certainty [italics theirs] of design. The chronology of present truth might be a mere happening if it were not for the repetitions in the two great cycles of 1845 and 2520 years, which take it out of the realm of chance and into that of certainty. If there were only one or two corresponding dates in these cycles, they might possibly be mere concidences, but where the agreements of dates and events come by the dozens, they cannot possibly be by chance, but must be by the design or plan of the only personal Being capable of such a plan -- Jehovah himself; and the chronology itself must be right [italics theirs]. In the passages of the Great Pyramid of Gizeh the agreement of one or two measurements with the present truth chronology might be accidental, but the correspondence of dozens of measurements proves that the same God designed both pyramid and plan — and at the same time proves the correctness of the chronology. The agreement of the chronology with certain measurements of the Tabernacle and the Temple of Ezekiel further stamps the chronology as true. It is on the basis of such and so many correspondencies — in accordance with the soundest laws known to science -- that we affirm that, Scripturally, scientifically, and historically, present-truth chronology is correct beyond a doubt [italics theirs]. Its reliability has been abundantly confirmed by the dates and events of 1874, 1914, and 1918. Present-truth chronology is a secure basis on which the consecreated child of God may endeavor to search out things to come....It is not necessary to show how if a change of 19 years were made in the chronology the time from Jacob to Jesus would be shortened from 1845 to 1826 years, and the entire system of dates based on the 'Jewish parallels' would collapse; how the jubilee system dates would fall out of place from its present symmetry; how the 2520-year parallels would disappear; how the entire system of dates would be scattered; how there could be no foundation for faith in the resulting chronological jumble; and how there could be no sound reason for believing in the presence of the Lord, the place and work of Pastor Russell, the end of the age, the harvest work, or in any of the literature published by the Society....Present-truth chronology is correct beyond the possibility of a doubt. Present-truth chronology is based upon divine prophecy and its Biblical fulfillment....The chronology stands firm as a rock, based upon the Word of God" (15 June 1922 Watchtower, p. 187)

    "There exists, however, well established relationships among the dates of present-truth chronology. These internal connections of the dates impart a much greater strength than can be found in other chronologies. Some of them are of so remarkable a character as clearly to indicate that this chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct....In the chronology of present truth there are so many inter-relationships among the dates that it is not a mere string of dates, not a chain, but a cable of strands firmly knit together -- a divinely unified system, with most of the dates having such remarkable relations with others as to stamp the system as not of human origin.... Man invents man-made things but discovers divine-created principles. Present-truth chronology is not an invention; it is a discovery....It will be clearly shown that present-truth chronology displays indisputable evidence of divine foreknowledge of the principle dates, and that this is proof of divine origin but a discovery of divine truth....Without these relations the chronology would not differ from secular systems but with them we believe that it bears the stamp of approval of Almighty God....These appointed times and seasons are in the power of Jehovah alone. They may not be ascertained, known or recognized, even after they have been fulfilled, without divine guidance and the unction of the holy spirit of God. Of this the Word of God says: "He giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: he revealeth the deep and secret things'; and, 'It is not for you [now] to know [all] the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power [to know] after the Holy Spirit is come upon you'; .... Therefore it would be impossible for a natural man, or even a spirit being, be he an angel or a devil, to know in advance all the appointed times which the Father has kept secret from all except his begotten and anointed children....Especially would it be beyond the bounds of possibility for the evil one to discern in advance the dates, ages, and marvelous connecting links of the true chronology; for these, when disclosed by God, are to be known first only by the true church,to whom God has given his spirit (Ephesians 3:10; Revelation 1:4). The demons occasionally may make shrewd guesses as to events to come within a brief future; but it is entirely beyond their power to see such matters far in advance, except as distinctly revealed by God through the church....If in a system of chronology there can be shown to have been a foreknowledge of coming events and seasons, it must be conceded to have been of divine origin. This can be shown to be true of present-truth chronology alone, which stamps it as of heavenly origin. In the true chronology the many connecting strands are proof of the fact that God foreknew the dates and the events so interwoven with one another....It would be absurd to claim that the relationship discovered was not the result of divine arrangement. God alone has such foreknowledge, and this proves that he so overruled times and events that they should be knit together into a beautiful and harmonius whole too sublime to be the result of chance or of human invention....Those that follow Jehovah's chronology are manifestly his people" (15 July 1922 Watchtower, pp. 217-219)

    "There has been some attempt here on the part of one brother to disturb the friends, especially on the question of chronology and the work of the Society....All Europe is like a boiling pot, with the intensity of the heat ever increasing. If anyone who has studied the Bible can travel through Europe and not be convinced that the world has ended, that the day of God's vengeance is here, that the Messianic kingdom is at the door, then he has read the Bible in vain. The physical facts show beyond question of a doubt that 1914 ended the Gentile times; and as the Lord foretold, the old order is being destroyed by war, famine, pestilence, and revolution. The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures because it is fixed by the law God gave to Israel. Viewing the present situation in Europe, one wonders how it will be possible to hold back the explosion much longer; and that even before 1925 the great crisis will be reached and probably passed" (1 September 1922 Watchtower, p. 260-262).

    Then after 1925 much of the chronology (including that used for reckoning 1925), what supposedly was of divine origin and revealed by the unction of the Holy Spirit, was eventually junked unceremoniously.

  • Terry

    I kind of went through a similar process. Originally in high school I was a pro-JW apologist and tried to disprove things when I heard about it. I went through a process of initially thinking the claims were ridiculous on their face, to being troubled by them and recognizing genuine problems, and then finally realizing that things were not what I initially thought. I wonder if this person is going through something similar.

    Yeah. Me too.

    This religion is dependent on very smart people being motivated to make very smart arguments on their behalf.

    Arguing with me when I was an active JW was not very pleasant for anybody, I can tell you that.

    But, even at my most righteously indignant state there was a little voice in the back of my mind reacting rationally to the really sound attacks being

    hurled against my religion.

    It was a Mormon fellow I debated at work who did the most damage, oddly enough!

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