Bethel - the house of the canaanite god El

by mP 73 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • NOLAW
    NOLAW

    Leolaia: 'Iaon' is the name of a a river in Arcadia (http://books.google.gr/books?id=6BxGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA215&lpg=PA213&ots=3T40RIYlnc&dq=%CE%99%CE%B1%CF%89%CE%BD+%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%82&hl=el). Apart from that google won't help more.

    'Iaon and Zeus' (in Greek) is a study by an (ex)jw researcher and poet a copy of which I do not have available. I hope someone reading this thread might have one and provide us with a pdf.

    Now regarding the rest if you understand Greek avail yourself with this book (from which I have quoted):

    Πελασγικη Ελλας: οι προελληνες / Ν. Π. Ελευθεριαδου

    It traces the roots of the Greek language in Proto-Semetic and in extend it is quite enlightening about many subjects like: passover, the ransom!

    Pallini:

    http://www.coptic.ru/lexeme/ab90a1a819844779927052c24b7a030a.html

    http://books.google.gr/books?id=JAfUDcU6v8QC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B5&source=bl&ots=k4JhQBYFgp&sig=7FHpx6q9hI3Z1ze5Lm8ZpyrTdts&hl=el

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    many of the twelve tribe names themselves are taken from local deities, such as dan which means judge.

    I'm not so sure about this; there are some who connect Dan with the Danoi/Danuna/Denyen who were one of the Sea Peoples. I think Gad might be from a DN inasmuch as the name means "luck". There are other names that might reflect totemistic animal names. But the tribal names I listed are definitely of geographical significance, which is why I cited them.

    the twelve tribes brothers is about uniting this confederation, the levites later tried to impose total control on religion and worship because of the shear wealth involved.

    Ummm, I think that statement can be questioned, but whatever...

    the fact that nearly ten percent of all israel could live from just performing priestly duties shows just how much income was spent by locals.

    I don't think the biblical telling of history is to be accepted uncritically. Reckoning the Levites as a distinct tribe appears to be a late development which later was retrojected back into the earlier period. Here is something I wrote earlier about it in another thread:

    I think we agree that the genealogies of P and the Chronicler are late and ideologically contrived (such as furnishing Zadok a Levitical background) and we agree on the effects of the Josianic reform and on the prior role of Levite priests in the local sanctuaries. I also agree that the notion of Levi as a separate "tribe" reckoned among the twelve is a late Josianic or post-Josianic development. Although older theories of Levi's origin as a secular tribe accepted the Blessing of Jacob (Genesis 49) and the Blessing of Moses (Deuteronomy 33) at face value as very early documents, newer redactional analyses has shown that the references to Levi in the tribal lists are secondary accretions. I am thinking especially of Kent Sparks' 2003 ZAW article that reconstructs the Blessing of Moses as a late seventh century BC redaction of an eighth century BC list and the Blessing of Jacob as a sixth century BC redaction of an eighth century BC list. The oldest tribal list in the Song of Deborah (Judges 5), which Sparks dates to the ninth century BC but which I think could have been composed earlier, has a ten-tribe confederation lacking Levi, and the early versions of the Blessing of Moses and the Blessing of Jacob similarly mention only ten tribes. Expanding the ideal number from ten to twelve in the seventh century BC allowed Levi to be counted as a separate tribe of Israel. I believe the fall of the northern kingdom around 722 BC may have produced social changes (such as the migration of Aaronid refugee priests from Bethel, Dan, and other northern sanctuaries to Judah and their subsequent conflict with the Zadokites of Jerusalem) that lie behind the ethnicization of Levites as a "tribe" and the later centralization of the Yahweh cult.

    But I don't think that is the whole picture. Although Deuteronomy equates Levites with priests, the picture is certainly more complex in the traditional material in Judges which does not declare Levi to be a tribe and which portrays imo a more primitive situation. There we find non-Levites performing priestly functions or installed as priests (Judges 6:26-27, 13:17-19, 17:5, cf. 1 Samuel 7:1, 2 Samuel 6:1-5, 20:25-26), and the young Levite who is the focus of the story in Judges 17-18 only becomes a priest when others take it upon themselves to hire him. There also isn't anything characteristically priestly about the Levite at the center of the tale in ch. 19-20, particularly if we set aside the probable redaction in 19:18 (which is not found in the LXX). But what these stories do say about the Levites is that they were sojourners (gr) living among various alien tribes (Judah, Ephraim, and Dan in the case of Jonathan the Levite) who depended on the hospitality of the host tribes. It is tempting to see these stories as reflecting the situation in the seventh century BC when northern priests were dispersed in Judah and certainly this latter circumstance lies behind the references to Levi as a dispersed tribe in the Blessing of Jacob and later sources. But the picture in Judges is not one of a tribe of priests and not one which depicts the Levites as moving southward into Judah from Ephraim and Dan. The sojourner status of the Levites however is reminiscent of other alien residents within Judah, such as the Kenites and the Rechabite clan in particular (1 Samuel 15:6, 30:29, 1 Chronicles 2:55, Jeremiah 35). My idea is that the Levites of the Divided Monarchy derive at least in part from a southern (possibly Edomite) non-Judahite clan that became part of Judah's hodgepodge population, possibly affiliated with the Kenites and Calebites. This was the group that was centered around the Yahwistic covenant ark cult and which traced their origins, at least in part, to Moses.

    If Yahwism was shared between the several southern clans (as the Kenites were also probably Yahwistic) that became a part of Judah's population, and if the ark was regarded as the seat of Yahweh's presence, then the Levite clan (if it was called that early on) held prestige in cultic duties relating to Yahweh. The southern groups that introduced the Yahweh cult to Judah settled in various places as alien residents, but most importantly in Hebron where Judahite political power came to be concentrated in the eleventh century BC. The families that cared for the ark may not have originally been called "Levite" but that functional name in due course distinguished them from the other southern clans (notice that Kenite is also functional, the "metal smiths"). Not all Levites were priests and there were many priests throughout the tribes who were not Levites. The Yahweh cult spread especially once it had official support from the ruler(s) of Hebron and eventually the ark came to reside in Shiloh in Ephraimite territory. This was probably a traditional sanctuary for El and the relocation of Levites connected with the ark to Shiloh may have played a role in the syncretistic merging of the originally separate El and Yahweh cults. A similar syncretistic merger of the El and Yahweh cults occurred elsewhere in Ephraimite territory at Bethel (where Yahweh possessed El's bovine iconism). In both cases, the mixing of the cults possibly meant that the local priesthoods devoted to El and the Levites devoted to Yahweh merged at the various locales, and much the same thing would have also occurred at sanctuaries devoted to Baal. The story of Jonathan and Micah in Judges 17-18 is interesting because Micah already had a priest but what he really wanted was a Levite priest. And then in ch. 18 the Danites settling in Laish took Jonathan and his cult images by force so that he would become their own priest in Dan. I think that as the Yahweh cult (along with its iconism) spread northward throughout the Israelite territories, the Levites spread along with it. And so the rise of henotheistic Yahwism (with its many local Yahweh cults, e.g. "Yahweh of Samaria") increased the number of sanctuaries with "Levite" ties and gradually led to the perception of Levites as a tribe unto itself. Although priesthoods in the ANE were largely hereditary (which suggests that the later Levite priesthood was at least inclusive of the descendents of early Yahwist priests), it is probable that by the seventh and sixth centuries BC, some priesthoods having no hereditary connection with the early Levite ark cult adopted Levite identities to gain legitimacy or to co-opt the credentials of another group (the Zadokites and P come to mind). But I think for several reasons that the ethnicization of the Levite tribe in the late Divided Monarchy built upon an older traditional southern non-Israelite and non-Judahite identity.

    First of all, the tribal name Levi (lwy) shares its form with the gentilic lwy "Levite", which may be an indication that the former is a secondary adaptation of the latter. As qyny "Kenite" is the gentilic of qyn (cf. Numbers 24:21-22), lwy "Levite" may be the gentilic of lwh (perhaps with the functional meaning "pledged one", as qyn has the functional meaning of "metal smith"). It is possible that these names were bestowed on the southern alien residents by the Judahites (according to their different social functions), or it is possible that the names are traditional to these groups (if the Kenite genealogy in J is indicative). Another important indication is found in the early tradition in Numbers 26:58 (LXX): "The following are the Levite clans: The Libnite clan, the Hebronite clan, the Korahite clan, and the Mushite clan [= the clan named after Moses]". This non-genealogical fragment is embedded within P's genealogical census scheme and conflicts with it on a number of points (compare v. 10 and 57) and P appears to be dependent on it in his genealogy in Exodus 6:16-19 which contains a number of secondary contrivances. The first two names locate the Levites in two different towns in Judah, Libnah and Hebron (which turn up in the much longer list of Levitical cities in Joshua 21), and the southern credentials of the Korahites are also manifest in the fact that elsewhere Korah is one of the sons of Esau (= Edom) "born in the land of Canaan" (Genesis 36:5, 14), whereas the Chronicler makes Korah a son of "Hebron" (1 Chronicles 2:42), who in turn is designated as a Calebite. And the Calebites in turn are characterized elsewhere as Edomites of the clan of Kenaz (cf. Genesis 36:11, 15, 42, Judges 1:12), and Joshua 15:13-14 locates the Calebites in the town of Hebron. That the Calebites and Levites were both located in Hebron and both given Edomite ties through Korah is one sign of the overlap between the two groups. The town of Libnah also is depicted as siding with the Edomites in war against Judah (2 Kings 8:20-22), suggesting that the Levite clan of the Libnites had Edomite sympathies. The association of Levi with Simeon in the Blessing of Jacob suggests a southern background as well for the Levites, and the Levite stories in Judges may depict a northward progression from Judah into Ephraim and Dan.

    The strongest evidence imo for a southern Edomite and possibly Midianite origin of the Levites is the predominance of the Levites in all the wilderness traditions (J, E, D, P, the Blessing of Moses, etc.), which locates Moses and pre-Israelite Levites in the lands of Midian and Edom. And the different sacred mountains named as Yahweh's abode (Horeb, Sinai, Paran, Seir) may indicate that the groups introducing Yahwism into Judah incorporated families from different parts of the southern wilderness or were nomadic themselves. What is especially interesting about the Edomite connection is that it is in Edom where a form of Yahweh first turns up; a fourteenth century BC toponym list of Amenhotep III refers to "Yhw in the land of the Shasu" near "Seir in the land of Shasu". And the Shasu during the New Kingdom also frequently entered Egypt for various reasons; one twelfth century BC text refers to the "Shasu of Edom" who were permitted to water their herds in the "waters of Pithom" (Papyrus Anastasi VI 55-56). The frequent military campaigns in the Levant during the New Kingdom, particularly in the wars against the Hittites and the Sea Peoples, also led to the exile of many thousands of Shasu prisoners-of-war (along with captives from Canaan and Syria), and we know from Ramesside-era documents that these captives were employed in architectural and agricultural work. And some managed to escape, such as a pair who fled Egypt through northern Sinai (Papyrus Anastasi V). This gives us a lot of the ingredients of the sojourn, exodus, and wilderness narratives and it is not improbable that different experiences of different components of the ancestral population(s) contributed traditions that amalgamated together. In addition to Yahweh having a southern origin, the same is the case with the Nehushtan serpent cult which traces its origins to Moses and the Levites as well (cf. Numbers 21:5-9, 2 Kings 18:4). The Moses connection is also evident in the magical connection with Moses and/or Aaron and serpents in Exodus 4:2-4, 5:6-12, and some have noticed the serpentine names belonging to Levites and figures associated with Moses: Nahshon (Exodus 6:23), Hobab (Numbers 10:29), Shuppim (1 Chronicles 26:16), and Naas (1 Chronicles 26:4 LXX). That the Nehushtan cult has a southern and possibly Egyptian origin is indicated by the discovery of a votive copper serpent in the Hathor temple at Timnah, which was used by Semites in the thirteenth and twelfth centuries BC. There also seems to be an Egyptian background to many priestly traditions. The focus on purification and cleanliness in the levitical legislation resembles the constant physical purification that the lower-caste wa'eb priests (servants of the hem-netjer priests, only the latter had direct access to the god's sanctuary), who as "pure ones" underwent circumcision, abstained from fish and pork, shaved their heads, washed themselves with water before servicing the temple, and wore white linen and sandals. This two-level system is reminiscent of the exilic and late pre-exilic division between subordinate Levites and the Zadokite priests so the influence may be late. On the other hand, it was during the New Kingdom when priests carried a chest as a portable throne for the king which strikingly resembled the form and function of the Israelite ark of the covenant carried by Levite priests (see this relief depicting Amenhotep I who reigned from 1526-1506 BC, and compare with the concept of Yahweh borne on the ark of the covenant). So it is possible that some Egyptian features are early and some are late. I recall also parallels between the priestly benediction in Numbers 6:23-26 (which is certainly pre-exilic if Ketef Hinnom is any indication) and Egyptian sources. Egyptian personal names, as mentioned above, occur only among those identified as Levites and/or priests, e.g. Moses (= ms "born of", possibly shortened from DN-ms), Merari (= mrry "beloved"), Phinehas (= p3nhsy "the Nubian"), Assir (= 'sr "Osiris"), Hori (hry "He of Horus"), Pashhur (psh-hr "portion of Horus"), Hophni (hfnr "tadpole"), Harnepher (= hr-nfr "Horus is good"), On (= iwn "pillar"), Putiel (= p3-di-'l "El has given"), Ahira (= 'chy-r` "My brother is Re") etc., the latter two being Egyptian-Semitic blends. Most of these are attested late and may represent perhaps a late influence. But Moses is certainly traditional and if this Egyptian name is early, perhaps others are as well. Also Phinehas is ascribed to three different individuals (Judges 20:38, 1 Samuel 1:3, Ezra 8:33) and Pashhur is the name of four different priests as well (Jeremiah 20:1, 21:1, 38:1, Ezra 2:38); this suggests to me that the names were already widely used and probably traditional. Since names tend to be rather conversative, since Egyptian DNs are common in the names despite the absence of Egyptian cults in Judah, since some of the names are blends with Hebrew (suggesting a degree of bilingualism in Egyptian), and since the names are not attested among those who are not priests or Levites, I think this might be an indication relevant to Levite origins. But even if we hypothesize that the names go back at least in part to the founding Levites, it doesn't necessarily point to residence in Egypt since we know that Egyptians had a presence, even a religious one, in Sinai (as the Timnah temple indicates), or even in LBA Canaan as the temple at Beth-Shean shows. But since Levantine Semites had resided in Egypt for hundreds of years under a myriad of different conditions (i.e. not necessarily as prisoners), it is also possible that the acquisition of Eygptian names and practices occurred in Egypt as well.

    lazarus is every close to osiris. take a look at lazarus not in its english form but rather in hebrew and the two are almost identical.

    No they don't, the names have nothing to do with each other. Eleazar is a normal Hebrew name 'el`azar "El has helped". It has no etymological relationship with Egyptian Wesir/Asir "Osiris". And when Osiris was loaned into Hebrew as a PN, the Hebrew form of the name was 'assîr "Assir" (Exodus 6:24); very, very different from the other name, which has an `ayin instead of an 'aleph and a tsade instead of a samek. This is another example of superficial non-resemblence.

    if tgey are false frirnds then explain the other similiarities between both characters. its not hard to see the later story being based on the egyptian.

    What are the similarities other than very, very broad generalities? Did Lazarus' wife resurrect him so she could have sex with him? Did Lazarus then die a second time and after being buried had his body hacked into a dozen pieces scattered throughout the country? Did Lazarus' wife gather all the pieces together but somehow failed to find his penis? Does Lazarus oversee judgment of the dead in the underworld?

    From reading your article about Yahweh originally being a son of the creator God El, along with your reference to Daniel 7 and Israel being apportioned to Yahweh, is it possible that Jesus was Yahweh and that when he was on Earth and praying to his Father in Heaven, he wasnt praying to Jehovah, but to El?

    I think it is possible that the Christian dynamic of Son-ruling-at-consent-of-Father might draw on older mythological themes, just as the Chaoskampf theme reemerges in Revelation and other texts about the triumph of Jesus over the forces of evil.

    'Iaon' is the name of a a river in Arcadia (http://books.google.gr/books?id=6BxGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA215&lpg=PA213&ots=3T40RIYlnc&dq=%CE%99%CE%B1%CF%89%CE%BD+%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%82&hl=el). Apart from that google won't help more.

    Umm, okay, and the relevance of that is...?

    'Iaon and Zeus' (in Greek) is a study by an (ex)jw researcher and poet a copy of which I do not have available. I hope someone reading this thread might have one and provide us with a pdf.

    Okay I would like to read it if someone finds a link. The idea as you presented it came across as rather bizarre.

    It traces the roots of the Greek language in Proto-Semetic

    There are Semitic loanwords in Greek (especially via Phoenician) but Greek does not derive nor have its "roots" in Proto-Semitic. This perhaps sounds like another "crank" idea...

    Pallini: http://www.coptic.ru/lexeme/ab90a1a819844779927052c24b7a030a.html

    Thanks for the citation. I don't read Russian so the abbreviations aren't easy to make out, but there is nothing there about Baal and the passage seems to be saying (I'm not sure) that Βαλληνα- in the adverbial Βαλληνα-δε is a blend of βαλλω "to throw, cast" and Παλληνη, and the example seems to refer to stoning someone, which imports the meaning of βαλλω. I'll have to look up this word in another lexicon later.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    mP:

    jethro

    Who is jethro??

    your comment probably comes from people who wish to hide the pagan el connection. we have the same sort of strange meani g given to israel, when it is obvious it is a trinity of three pagan names combined.

    That makes absolutely no sense at all, and is the stupidest and most paranoid thing I've heard for some time. It's like saying the word dogma has something to do with dogs. The word 'elder' (from ald [old], from a Proto-Indo-European root, al- [to grow]) has nothing at all to do with the Hebrew term 'el'. And the comment is not 'probably' from any delusional 'agenda' at all. It's just a plain and simple fact. You're showing your ignorance of some very basic concepts. You should stop before you embarrass yourself further.

  • mP
    mP

    @jeffro

    sorry tablet must have auto corrected and i did not notice. apologies :)

    Take a look at the standard definition for Israel, its just stupid.

    According to the Hebrew Bible the name "Israel" was given to the patriarch Jacob ( Standard Yisra?el , Isra?il ; Septuagint Greek : ?σρα?λ ; "struggle with God" [30] ) after he successfully wrestled with the angel of the Lord.

    How or why is a nation struggling with God, if the nation is the subject ? The fact that Jacob supposedly struggled with God hardly seems like something that should be commemorated by naming a nation. I can think o f many better more approrpiate names, such as something that includes Jehovah and perhaps something like Children or people.

    Given the many egyptian religion connections with Judaism i have no problem seeing the possibility that Israel is nothing more than a compound of Is for Isis, Ra for the Sun god, El needs no introduction.

    On the origins of Elder, the fact that El was a god and Elder is a religious position its not a far fetch to suppose the two could be connected. Im pretty sure there are many other languages that use El that could be retrofitted into something meaningful and made to apply to elder. Dog and dogma are completely unrelatd concepts, unlike el and elder.

  • mP
    mP

    Leolaia

    I don't think the biblical telling of history is to be accepted uncritically. Reckoning the Levites as a distinct tribe appealrs to be a late development which later was retrojected back into the earlier period. Here is something I wrote earlier about it in another thread:

    MP

    Sometimes historian types take the Bible too literally, my comments were mostly in light the Bible was written mostly if not exclusively by priests and religous leaders who had an agenda. They wanted to keep the masses worshipping and visiting their temples and places of worship, and paying them gold and sacrifices. Its not hard to imagine to imagine Jeremiah being angry not because the locals worship other gods, but because he felt that money should be going to his king and his brotherhood of priests.
  • mP
    mP

    Some of the tribal names are very much what one would expect from a local deity...

    I have added the point of interest in bold.

    JUDAH

    Judah which means Jah praises is probably the easiest, the land of Judea also happens to be the land of Yahwist. THe Bible itself tells us that the southern tribe of Judah was the chosen one, so its no surprise that Judah is such a fitting name.

    DAN

    The Tribe of Dan , also sometimes spelled as "Dann", ( Hebrew : ???? , Modern Dan Tiberian Dan ; "Judge") was one of the Tribes of Israel . Though known mostly from biblical sources, they were possibly descendants of the Denyen Sea Peoples who joined with Hebrews . Eventually they were excluded from list of sealed tribes for pagan practices.

    ASHER

    The text of the Torah argues that the name of Asher means happy / blessing , implying a derivation from the Hebrew term osher (with the same meaning); the Torah actually presents this in two variations— beoshri (meaning in my good fortune ), and ishsheruni , which textual scholars attribute to different sources—one to the Yahwist and the other to the Elohist . [1] Many scholars suspect that the name of Asher may have more to do with a deity originally worshipped by the tribe, either Asherah , [2] or Ashur , the chief Assyrian deity; [3] the latter possibility is cognate with Asher. [3]

    ISSACHAR

    Issachar/Yissachar (Hebrew: ?????????? , Modern Yissakhar Tiberian Yissâ?ar ; "Reward; recompense") was, according to the Book of Genesis, a son of Jacob and Leah (the fifth son of Leah, and ninth son of Jacob), and the founder of the Israelite Tribe of Issachar; however some Biblical scholars view this as postdiction, an eponymous metaphor providing an aetiology of the connectedness of the tribe to others in the Israelite confederation. [1] The text of the Torah gives two different etymologies for the name of Issachar, which some textual scholars attribute to different sources - one to the Yahwist and the other to the Elohist; [2] the first being that it derives from ish sakar, meaning man of hire, in reference to Leah's hire of Jacob's sexual favours for the price of some mandrakes; [3] the second being that it derives from yesh sakar, meaning there is a reward, in reference to Leah's opinion that the birth of Issachar was a divine reward for giving her handmaid Zilpah to Jacob as a concubine. [4] Scholars suspect the former explanation to be the more likely name for a tribe, though some scholars have proposed a third etymology - that it derives from ish Sokar, meaning man of Sokar, in reference to the tribe originally worshipping Sokar, an Egyptian deity. [5]

    GAD

    According to the Hebrew Bible , the Tribe of Gad ( Hebrew : ???? , Modern Gad Tiberian Ga? ; "soldier" or "luck") was one of the Tribes of Israel .

    I did check a few of the other names and they are not so obvious and do not appear to be related to dieties. However 5 out of 12 is quite compelling for my original statement.

  • mP
    mP

    @Leolaia

    I also find it surprising that the definition of Levi is expliocitly said to not be snake even though the word for wriggly is very close to Levi. When one recalls the story of Moses and Nehusatan, the snake that speaks to Eve and seraphim its hard to not appreciate the snake had a special status in ancient Israel and it would be fitting that they did have a devotion.

  • mP
    mP

    Regardingly Lazarus, not all copies or retelling of God myths are identical. I think its fair to say most scholars accept Noah and the flood as a retelling of other flood stories from Mesopotamia, even with its many differences. Lazarus in the NT was never meant to be a god, thus the story needed to be customised, in much the same way the story of jesus is the story of the sun as a humanized person.

    Im tired but i will find more proof for Lazarus some later time.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    mP

    On the origins of Elder, the fact that El was a god and Elder is a religious position its not a far fetch to suppose the two could be connected. Im pretty sure there are many other languages that use El that could be retrofitted into something meaningful and made to apply to elder. Dog and dogma are completely unrelatd concepts, unlike el and elder.

    No. You are quite definitely wrong. The terms are completely unrelated.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    That makes absolutely no sense at all, and is the stupidest and most paranoid thing I've heard for some time. It's like saying the word dogma has something to do with dogs. The word 'elder' (from ald [old], from a Proto-Indo-European root, al- [to grow]) has nothing at all to do with the Hebrew term 'el'.

    Correct.

    How or why is a nation struggling with God, if the nation is the subject ? The fact that Jacob supposedly struggled with God hardly seems like something that should be commemorated by naming a nation.

    It's just an etiological legend for the origin of the name, which depends on secondary features like the identification of Israel with Jacob, giving him a second name. The name actually means "El contends". I recall some article I read before that the wrestling story better explains the name Philistia or Palestine, from the Greek word meaning "to wrestle". I don't recall offhand what conclusion was drawn from that.

    Given the many egyptian religion connections with Judaism i have no problem seeing the possibility that Israel is nothing more than a compound of Is for Isis, Ra for the Sun god, El needs no introduction.

    Yes I see a huge, huge problem with that. That's not how names were formed, by lumping together the names of three unrelated gods. This is the kind of suggestion amateurs make that philologists roll their eyes over. From a post I wrote 8 years ago:

    Well, for starters, theophoric elements like -el or -yahu appear mainly on verbal and adjectival hosts, also commonly on nominal ones, and it is quite rare when two DNs occur in a possessive relation. But you just don't get three DNs concatenated together without any possessive or other semantic relation. What is "Israel" supposed to mean, after all? "El is Re is Isis"? Or "Isis' Re's El"? It is nonsensical. Look at all the PNs in the OT and throughout ANE literature. Some examples with theophoric elements:

    Marduk-epiri "Marduk fosters me," Dio-trephes "Nurtured by Zeus", Aper-el "Fostered by El," Apra-baal "Fostered by Baal," Hayab-ilu "Where is Father El?", Sakar-il "El has Favored," Ummi-balat "Balat is Mother", Ummi-Ishtar "Ishtar is Mother", Aduna-Addu "Adad is Lord", Rim-Addu "Wild-bull of Adad", Anat-umma "Anat is Mother", Shapshi-abi "Shapsh is Father", Bali-erah "Yerih is Lord", Ya-'qub-el "El protects", Ya-'qub-har "Horus (?) protects", Shaddai-'or "Shaddai Shines", Apollo-genes "Beget by Apollo," Dio-dorus "Gift of Zeus," El-natan "Gift of El," Yeho-natan "Gift of Yahweh," Jerubbaal "Established by Baal," Jeru-salem "Established by Shalem", Eli-sama "El Hears," Eli-melek "El is King", Yeho-el "Yahweh is El", Eli-ezer "El helps", Ishma-el "El Hears," Yer-baal "Baal Contends," Peni-el "Face of El," Qaws-natan "Gift of Qaws", Qaws-gabri "Qaws is Mighty", Neri-yahu "Yahweh is my Lamp," Berek-yahu "Yahweh has Blessed", Yerahme-el "May El be Merciful", Hanan-yahu "Yahweh is Gracious", Baal-hanan "Baal is Gracious", Azar-yahu "Yahweh Helps", Gedel-yahu "Yahweh is Great", Zehar-yahu "Yahweh Remembers", Pela-yahu "Yahweh is Wondrous", Mattit-yahu "Gift of Yahweh", Milkom-or "Milkom Shines", El-yasha "El has Saved", Baal-yasha "Baal has Saved", Yahzi-baal "May Baal See", Abd-Ilib "Servant of Ibid", Zidqi-yahu "Yahweh Vindicates", Sin-uballit "Sin Gives Life", Nabu-naid "Nabu is Exalted", Nabu-apla-usur "May Nabu Help the Son", Weser-Anat "Anat is Powerful", Sebek-emsaf "Sobek is Protection", Sekhem-re "Re is Powerful", Seqenen-re "Strikes Like Re", Amen-hotep "Amun is Satisfied", Thut-mose "Born of Thoth", Nebmaat-re "Re Loves Truth", Akhen-aten "Servant of Aten", Tutankh-amun "Living Image of Amun", Hor-emheb "Horus is Jubilant", Ra-messes "Born of Re", Menmaat-re "Eternal Justice of Re", Meri-amun "Beloved of Amun", etc.In Isis-Re-El, there is no predicate and neither is there a possessive relation. And I have yet to see an instance of three DNs in a single PN or GN (geographical name). I think what you have in mind is a basic conjunction of the three names concatenated together. But there is indeed special syntax for linking DNs together without a predicative relation: the conjunction w- "and" is used. Thus we see examples in the Ugaritic and Eblaite literature such as Athtar-wa-Athtapir, Kothar-wa-Hasis, Yamm-wa-Nahar, Nidakul-wa-Besal, Resheph-wa-Adama, and Agu-wa-Guladu. On this basis we might expect Is-wa-re-wa-el, except I have never seen an instance of three names conjoined together, and neither do such conjoined DNs ever occur as toponyms or ethnonyms. The conjunction of two Egyptian DNs with a Semitic DN is also unusual.So without even looking at the evidence showing that Israel is a well-formed Semitic theophoric name from a normal verbal root, we can see how implausible the suggested meaning is. And I have looked at many reference works on the subject by well-esteemed philologists (cf. Skinner, Driver, etc.), and no one I know has ever suggested such a strange and unusual (obviously bogus) etymology of the name.

    I did check a few of the other names and they are not so obvious and do not appear to be related to dieties. However 5 out of 12 is quite compelling for my original statement.

    Yeah, it is certainly possible that some of the names might contain elements referring to deities, just as "Israel" does. That was besides the point of why I mentioned the tribal names in the first place. Between the named characters of the sons of Jacob in Genesis and the tribal names, the latter have priority inasmuch as several of the names of geographical reference.

    On the origins of Elder, the fact that El was a god and Elder is a religious position its not a far fetch to suppose the two could be connected. Im pretty sure there are many other languages that use El that could be retrofitted into something meaningful and made to apply to elder. Dog and dogma are completely unrelatd concepts, unlike el and elder.

    It is very far fetched....it is outright absurd. Whatever "religious meaning" the IE term may have is secondary to the meaning of "old", and there is no connection regardless between the ecclesiatical term "elder" and the Semitic term for "god". Elders are not gods, they are old men with responsibility < religious position. Unrelated concepts, just like dog and dogma.

    I also find it surprising that the definition of Levi is expliocitly said to not be snake even though the word for wriggly is very close to Levi. When one recalls the story of Moses and Nehusatan, the snake that speaks to Eve and seraphim its hard to not appreciate the snake had a special status in ancient Israel and it would be fitting that they did have a devotion.

    I agree to some extent. As mentioned in my last post, I think the Levite wilderness traditions (including the serpentine PNs, the Nehushtan, etc.) might have some connection with the snake cult (cf. the votive copper snake discovered in a temple in Timnah) in the Sinai area.

    Regardingly Lazarus, not all copies or retelling of God myths are identical. I think its fair to say most scholars accept Noah and the flood as a retelling of other flood stories from Mesopotamia, even with its many differences. Lazarus in the NT was never meant to be a god, thus the story needed to be customised, in much the same way the story of jesus is the story of the sun as a humanized person.

    You have an a priori assumption here that Lazarus must be a character in a god myth and thus must be a deity and then you are looking for a fit, no matter how strained, to some Egyptian myth. That's not the way to look for parallels in myths. The burden of proof is to demonstrate that there is a connection and not presume it already. The validity of the parallel depends on the nature of the paralels, and as I mentioned, they are quite weak. It is more probable that Lazarus (a very common Jewish name) is simply a character in a healing narrative.

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