Is worship deserved? (page 5)

N.drew

I think You are not being fair. You draw conclusions without considering all the evidence. Something ELSE must have happened between the time the man picking up wood was arrested and when he was sentenced to death by stoning. You can not imagine that he publicly cursed God and Israel? I can. I don't know, but I can't judge because I wasn't a witness to the events.

The Bible is for discerning hearts. Are you quick to judge? Are you drawing conclusions to fit your own point of view?

I believe the prophesies about the death of the "wicked" are caused by them reaping what they have sown.

tootired2care

Tec - If I'm correct Paul was speaking to the annointed or little flock (Luke 12:32, Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1) as Jesus called them, I'm not sure if what you says applies to those who today live a faithful course and die with an earthly hope (great crowd Rev 7:9), or any that have since died after the first century congregation was sown over with weeds.

In any event we are splitting hairs arguing this sidepoint; that really doesn't matter or isn't key to the topic of this thread. The point is God is allowing a retest period and you are entitled to believe otherwise.

tootired2care

I think You are not being fair. you draw conclusions without considering all the evidence.

Evidence? "Something ELSE must have happened"...interesting.

tec

There is no earthly vs. heavenly hope, tootired. That is another jw falsehood. There is one hope; the same hope for all who belong to Christ. And you missed this; though if you are holding to an earthly vs heavenly hope theology, then the following won't matter:

"I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not recieved his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with

Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection."

I disagree that we are off topic though. You mentioned God testing people once, then those people who passed the test the first time around being tested again... and you mentioned it as a reason that God is not worthy of 'worship'.

But He does not do this, so it is not such a reason.

Peace,

tammy

tootired2care

First off... what toiling and sacrifice are we speaking of here?

I guess you have to have been a JW to really understand this...The constant pressure to always be doing more and better to output at your peak for your whole life to attain the prize. This is what was drilled into us with reference to scriptures like these.

“Do you not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may attain it.”—1 Cor. 9:24.

“Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door"Luke 13:24

The life of Christian, the way the scriptures paint it out that it should be, is not a normal life as most Christian faiths settle for these days.

tootired2care

Bottom line is he does let Satan loose to wield his influence on all intelligent creation again, and I view this as a retest which you obviously don't, I think it's pointless to argue this anymore. The sidepoint that I'm refering to is the finer technical points of the resurrection, which really doesn't matter to me, what matters is he is allowing this all to happen again.

tec

Oh, I understand. Constantly being asked to do more... be more... do better... be better... and then at the end of it all, IF you manage to pass 'the test'... you get to keep doing all that for another thousand years and hope you pass a second test. E x hausting. Utterly defeating and exhausting.

But the wts is wrong, Tootired. You know that. Don't let them define what a christain is supposed to be. Christ set people free of heavy burdens... HIS yoke is light. He rebuked the pharisees and teachers of the law for loading people up with burdens they could not possibly carry. How is that message in any way in harmony with the WTS teachings and e x pectations?

Show love and mercy and forgiveness. Make those your heart, and your actions will follow. Follow the golden rule. Living your life according to these is not always easy, you are right. Sometimes professing Christ is hard as well, and meets with opposition. (of course, that would have been especially true back then; not as much now)

But He is not the heavy burden that the WTS claims... they are the heavy burden; one of many who Christ set people free from, but who seek to re-enslave you.

Peace Tootired,

tammy

tootired2care

There is no earthly vs. heavenly hope, tootired. That is another jw falsehood.

Falsehood or a different interpretation from a book that no one has agreed on for the last 2000+ years?

tec

Falsehood.

Christ makes no distinctions or even implied statement between a heavenly or earthly hope. He does speak of one hope; one body; one flock.

Peace,

tammy

Shawn10538

Great question. Actually, the way I see it, if someone, or some thing ASKS to be worshipped, and DEFINITELY if they REQUIRE that you worship them under the threat of death, then all worshipping that results from that request or demand is illegitimate and phony. Why would a God want that kind of worship? What would it prove? It's like kidnapping a person and telling them to fall in LOVE you or you'll kill them. Then when they express love to you, you actually are impressed by their love and it actually means something to you. That is ridiculous.

The only worship that makes sense is the spontaneus unsolicited worship that comes from the worshipper aLONE, not from any other source. (DEFINITION OF WORSHIP AND HOW IT IS TO BE EXPRESSED HASN'T REALLY BEEN DEFINED BY ANYBODY BUT IT WOULDn't MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THIS CASE CUZ THE WORSHIPPER WOULD HAVE TO HAVE COMPLETE AUTONOMY IN HOW THEY EXPRESSED THEIR WORSHIP. If they adopted the God's method of worship it would be tainted and adulterated. If they adopted some other dude's definition of worship then it would just be some other dude's definition of worship and therefore not a spontaneus expression of worship from the worshipper.) (that was caps error not emphasis)

So, the very concept of worship is completely bogus. Unless it happens from the situations I described above. And I know everyone is going to say that their worship is this kind of legitimate worship, but if you are a member of most religions, then your God has asked or even demanded you worship him under threat of death. At least that is what MOST Christians believe. I am not that kind of Christian though. I don't buy into the Bible, and only go off of a few, shall we say, personal supernatural experiences. Which has been sparse for me to say the least. So I really don't have a connection with anything originating from the Bible, and I did not come to Christ because of any request to be worshipped. But my case is really muddying the waters here, cuz most people don't take on a God based on them actually possessing you so to speak.

In fact, I'm not really sure if I would agree with anybody that prayer, supplication, reading the Bible, going out in service or saying Hail Marys... any of that stuff, has anything to do with worship. I'm still defining worship for myself, and none of that kind of stuff even comes close to what I'd consider worship. I actually think worship for me is about embodiment. Holding the soul of Christ in you as if he were you and you were him. And living like that.

But I also believe in universal salvation, so my God is not requiring that you come to him under any certain name, like Jesus. that just happens to be the name he came to me with. Salvation is just a gift as I see it and I just know that I have it. Anything else is beyond my personal scope of experience. Like, you can't be gay, or you have to believe in the Trinity... Anything that starts out with "you have to believe..." is complete blasphemy in my opinion.

Is worship deserved?

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