Is worship deserved? (page 4)

tec

So if you knew for an absolute certianty that there was no afterlife to look forward to; no heavenly or earthly reward; could you honesty say that you would toil your whole life in sacrifice carrying your torture stake of Christian life as Jesus commanded () for non-existence? Nobody does anything unless they are going to get something in return...I think their was Seinfeld episode about that wasn't there?

First off... what toiling and sacrifice are we speaking of here? Christ and my faith in Him help me and bring peace... in turn, I will help others if I can. Freely given, freely give. Does this bring hardship with it? Yes, it can... but so what? If we all lived life just so it is easy for us and who cares about others, then well... not much of a life, is that?

People follow human leaders without expecting an afterlife reward or punishment from them. Sometimes they follow simply because they believe in what those leaders are teaching. Sometime out of love or loyalty. Sometimes all three.

WTS explanation of not...the text is right there in the bible plain as day, what evidence do you have to support that their is a separate camp that won't be affected by Satan's release?

Rev 20: 7-9 "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to decieve the nations in the four corners of the earth - Gog and Magog - to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sands on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrouded the camp of God's people, the city he loves."

If you are within the camp that is being surrounded... then you are not also crossing the earth to surround it, are you? No one in the camp is deceived. Those outside of it are decieved.

Also, another to consider is this:

"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them." Rev 20:6

What is the second death? If fire comes down from heaven and devours all those who marched across the earth after Satan decieved them, then it cannot be referring to those who already took part in the first resurrection, can it? Because the second death has no power over them?

Peace, tammy

N.drew

People worship God because some good will come of it.

When there is peace and plenty, there is no one needing to be lifted up.

So if everything were alright and there was no one anymore that needed lifting up would people still worship God? God is our helper. If help were not needed would God be forgotten?

tootired2care

People worship God because some good will come of it.

How much good has come of it, really? Worshippers of God inevetably group together and form religions where they believe they are the only ones with divine backing, and what good has come from that in the long run? Mindcontrol, repression of women, child abuse, crusades, holy wars, Jihads, terrorism, racism on and on it goes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnerPDY87mM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnBq-pFrACU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRpuFfGvEIc

N.drew

There is no proving God and there is no proving if the world would be better or worse off if God did not exist in man's imagination.

Band on the Run

Jehovah acts as a jilted juvenile lover! The human instinct to worship is understandable. Why would a concept/person/whatever as awesome as God, want worship? Does he truly care about the Ark of the covenant or the measurements of the Temple? Why does he need such administrative support.

tootired2care

TEC -

I get what your saying about the camp ( a.k.a. holy city ) is like a DMZ line that Satan and his forces are not allowed to cross. A city of refuge as it were; however I haven't seen anything that says there won't be another test of loyalty. Just the fact that Satan is loosed again is a test for all intelligent creation in and of itself. Those who choose to remain loyal to God can have safety in the holy city/camp but that doesn't mean that they are not tested.

As you quoted, the bible says that there is a first resurrection, which implies that would be more following that. Back to my point...If one lives their course on earth faithful until their death and then is resurrected in a subsequent resurrection; than that individual would in fact be in line for a second testing to my original point.

Only that those who are of the first ressurection cannot be destroyed and are immortal, and it is my understanding that they are in heaven where Satan is banished from so Satan has no direct access to them. I don't think that means that they cannot still be influenced though.

Whatever the case; the fact that this is God's plan after the 1000 years after all the misery that he allowed mankind to go through over the ages is questionable at best. He doesn't want anyone to exist that doesn't agree with him. I don't believe someone who holds you accountable for what your ancestor did and demands worship while holding your life hostage deserves it.

N.drew

He doesn't want anyone to exist that doesn't agree with him.

How did you arrive at that conclusion tootired2care?

tootired2care

Drew - I came to this conclusion by reading the bible and considering the many accounts of how it turned out for those that didn't do "just so"; and realizing that he is allowing a second test to find the rest of those that don't see things his way so he can destroy them.

While the sons of Israel were continuing in the wilderness, they once found a man collecting pieces of wood on the sabbath day. 33 Then those who found him collecting pieces of wood brought him up to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. 34 So they committed him into custody, because it had not been distinctly stated what should be done to him.
35 In time Jehovah said to Moses: “Without fail the man should be put to death, the whole assembly pelting him with stones outside the camp.” Numbers 15:32-35

“For I am Jehovah; I have not changed" Mal 3:6

“‘A noise will certainly come clear to the farthest part of the earth, for there is a controversy that Jehovah has with the nations. He must personally put himself in judgment with all flesh. As regards the wicked ones, he must give them to the sword,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.
32 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest itself will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth. 33 And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become. - Jer 25:32

What is wicked?

Many things here is one: "Beware, brothers, for fear there should ever develop in any one of YOU a wicked heart lacking faith by drawing away from the living God". Heb 3:12

tec

however I haven't seen anything that says there won't be another test of loyalty.

You don't need to see something that says there won't be... you need to see something that says there will be; just to have reason to consider that it is there in the first place. Satan IS let loose... but those who are already within the kingdom (the camp); those who belong to Christ, who have brought over from death to life... those people are not the ones who Satan decieves.

Take the writings about the great crowd as well:

"These are thy who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, 'They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never gain will they hunger; never again will they thirst'."

What is the tribulation? It comes before the thousand years... and certainly before Satan goes out and deceives the nations into coming against that camp.

If one lives their course on earth faithful until their death and then is resurrected in a subsequent resurrection

When Christ returns... those who are still alive do not precede those who have died, but who belong to Christ. So that coming to life is the same for those who are still alive, and those who have died (fallen asleep). Paul was specific on that point. They are all part of the first resurrection.

Even in the same chapter in revelations, it shows those who had died:

"I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not recieved his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection."

Those who belong to Christ, whether alive or dead once He returns... all receive the same resurrection. They are all within that camp. The second death holds no power over them.

Peace,

tammy

tec

Also, you might want to consider that the nations are left to do their thing... it is only when they march across the earth to surround the camp that God loves... only when they come against those who belong to God for battle does fire come down from heaven to devour them.

God is protecting those who belong to Him, from those coming to destroy them.

Peace,

tammy

Is worship deserved?

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