Are you an athiest and why? (page 6)

tec

To me, regardless what beliefs we presently hold, we are all people seeking the truth of our existence and the origins of the universe. None of us have all the answers.

Agreed.

Peace Glad,

tammy

cofty

if you research the actual myths and stories, and speak to actual scholars who have no agenda, then you will see that these claims are unfounded. - Tec

This claim is as wrong as those who assert that Jeus was entirely invented out of whole cloth. Gospel writers were influenced by existing pagan myths. The "water into wine" story is a classic example as is the post-resurrection fish miracle. The truth is often somewhere in between two extreme opinions.

To me, regardless what beliefs we presently hold, we are all people seeking the truth of our existence and the origins of the universe. None of us have all the answers. - The Gladiator

I agree. One difference is that some of us are content to patiently follow the only method that works - the scientific method. Others like to pretend they know stuff that they don't and call it "spiritual".

THE GLADIATOR

cofty "One difference is that some of us are content to patiently follow the only method that works - the scientific method. Others like to pretend they know stuff that they don't and call it "spiritual."

I understand the point you are making. It can be frustrating to see people coming to conclusions based on faith instead of research; perhaps building a spiritual world based on what they hope is responsible for our existence. It can seem like they are taking a short cut.

Motive is sometimes more important than the deed. Spiritual belief and scientific optimism may not be as far apart, or as opposed as they can seem. If we alter our level of magnification and look from a distance the patterns are remarkably similar.

Expectation, hope, the desire to know, can cause us to rush to conclusions that then need to be amended. Both religion and science do this, though I do agree that science is more measured. Spirituality may contain a greater measure of emotion, then again emotion is not without value.

cofty

Good points Gladiator - Great scientists are also great dreamers, the difference comes with what happens next. Scientists roll their sleeves up and spend years or even decades trying to prove the objective reality of their ideas. Spirituality goes off unfettered by facts into flights of fancy.

Science is 10% inspiration and 90% persperation

Spirituality is 100% inspiration.

FlyingHighNow

Gladiator, thank you for another profound and important comment. Yours is a very balanced and fair approach, acknowledging the similarities, intelligence, emotion, faith and hope in both lines of thinking.

THE GLADIATOR

Thank you FlyingHighNow for you kind comments.

It is becauce I don't have all the answers that I walk a middle line. I alway enjoy your input.

still thinking

LouBelle...yes, I related to that also...and since it was written in 1896 I am sure more factual information has been discovered about similarities between myths. However, we cannot deny that the similarities are there, and as cofty pointed out, the truth is somewhere in between the two extremes.

I connected more as it got to the end of his lecture....He clarified the words in my mind....and made me wonder, when this God has taken it's course as all the other have in history...who will be the next God that we worship? Who will be the next saviour?

I agree with you New Chapter, man has a fear of death, probably due to basic human nature and survival. So we calm that fear with a God, someone that will save us. I realised that the last bastion of belief I couldn't let go of was admitting to myself that Jesus was not real....I couldn't figure out why I couldn't honestly let go of it when nothing made sense to me anymore, especially belief in him. Then, I finally realised. It was fear that was the last strong hold of belief...that little bit of fear that said to me....even though I don't believe this if I completely let go of the idea there just may be a tiny chance it could be true and I could be destroyed!!!!....what sort of faith is that? Some may think I just have it all wrong...and they can think what they like. I know, for myself that when if came down to it...fear was the underlying reason for faith.

For thousands of ages men and women have been trying to love the gods -- trying to soften their hearts -- trying to get their aid.

I see them all. The panorama passes before me. I see them with outstretched hands -- with reverently closed eyes -- worshiping the sun. I see them bowing, in their fear and need, to meteoric stones -- imploring serpents, beasts and sacred trees -- praying to idols wrought of wood and stone. I see them building altars to the unseen powers, staining them with blood of child and beast. I see the countless priests and hear their solemn chants. I see the dying victims, the smoking altars, the swinging censers, and the rising clouds. I see the half-god men -- the mournful Christs, in many lands. I see the common things of life change to miracles as they speed from mouth to mouth. I see the insane prophets reading the secret book of fate by signs and dreams. I see them all -- the Assyrians chanting the praises of Asshur and Ishtar -- the Hindus worshiping Brahma, Vishnu and Draupadi, the white-armed -- the Chaldeans sacrificing to Bel and Hea -- the Egyptians bowing to Ptah and Ra, Osiris and Isis -- the Medes placating the storm, worshiping the fire -- the Babylonians supplicating Bel and Murodach -- I see them all by the Euphrates, the Tigris, the Ganges and the Nile. I see the Greeks building temples for Zeus, Neptune and Venus. I see the Romans kneeling to a hundred gods. I see others spurning idols and pouring out their hopes and fears to a vague image in the mind. I see the multitudes, with open mouths, receive as truths the myths and fables of the vanished years. I see them give their toil, their wealth to robe the priests, to build the vaulted roofs, the spacious aisles, the glittering domes. I see them clad in rags, huddled in dens and huts, devouring crusts and scraps, that they may give the more to ghosts and gods. I see them make their cruel creeds and fill the world with hatred, war, and death. I see them with their faces in the dust in the dark days of plague and sudden death, when cheeks are wan and lips are white for lack of bread. I hear their prayers, their sighs, their sobs. I see them kiss the unconscious lips as their hot tears fall on the pallid faces of the dead. I see the nations as they fade and fail. I see them captured and enslaved. I see their altars mingle with the common earth, their temples crumble slowly back to dust. I see their gods grow old and weak, infirm and faint. I see them fall from vague and misty thrones, helpless and dead. The worshipers receive no help. Injustice triumphs. Toilers are paid with the lash, -- babes are sold, -- the innocent stand on scaffolds, and the heroic perish in flames. I see the earthquakes devour, the volcanoes overwhelm, the cyclones wreck, the floods destroy, and the lightnings kill.

The nations perished. The gods died. The toil and wealth were lost. The temples were built in vain, and all the prayers died unanswered in the heedless air.

Then I asked myself the question: Is there a supernatural power -- an arbitrary mind -- an enthroned God -- a supreme will that sways the tides and currents of the world -- to which all causes bow?

I do not deny. I do not know -- but I do not believe. I believe that the natural is supreme -- that from the infinite chain no link can be lost or broken -- that there is no supernatural power that can answer prayer -- no power that worship can persuade or change -- no power that cares for man.

I believe that with infinite arms Nature embraces the all -- that there is no interference -- no chance -- that behind every event are the necessary and countless causes, and that beyond every event will be and must be the necessary and countless effects.

Man must protect himself. He cannot depend upon the supernatural -- upon an imaginary father in the skies. He must protect himself by finding the facts in Nature, by developing his brain, to the end that he may overcome the obstructions and take advantage of the forces of Nature.

Is there a God?

I do not know.

Is man immortal?

I do not know.

One thing I do know, and that is, that neither hope, nor fear, belief, nor denial, can change the fact. It is as it is, and it will be as it must be.

We wait and hope.

XI

When I became convinced that the Universe is natural -- that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world -- not even in infinite space. I was free -- free to think, to express my thoughts -- free to live to my own ideal -- free to live for myself and those I loved -- free to use all my faculties, all my senses -- free to spread imagination's wings -- free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope -- free to judge and determine for myself -- free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the "inspired" books that savages have produced, and all the barbarous legends of the past -- free from popes and priests -- free from all the "called" and "set apart" -- free from sanctified mistakes and holy lies -- free from the fear of eternal pain -- free from the winged monsters of the night -- free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free. There were no prohibited places in all the realms of thought -- no air, no space, where fancy could not spread her painted wings -- no chains for my limbs -- no lashes for my back -- no fires for my flesh -- no master's frown or threat -- no following another's steps -- no need to bow, or cringe, or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free. I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously, faced all worlds.

Let us be true to ourselves -- true to the facts we know, and let us, above all things, preserve the veracity of our souls.

If there be gods we cannot help them, but we can assist our fellow-men. We cannot love the inconceivable, but we can love wife and child and friend.

We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know. We can tell the truth, and we can enjoy the blessed freedom that the brave have won. We can destroy the monsters of superstition, the hissing snakes of ignorance and fear. We can drive from our minds the frightful things that tear and wound with beak and fang. We can civilize our fellow-men. We can fill our lives with generous deeds, with loving words, with art and song, and all the ecstasies of love. We can flood our years with sunshine -- with the divine climate of kindness, and we can drain to the last drop the golden cup of joy.

Twitch

2000 years and counting,...

Razziel

"The gods that men made up through his own imagination never existed but that doesn't mean its not possible . "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coldfire_Trilogy

Are you an athiest and why?

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