Larsinger - I appreciate your point of view. I'm not sure there is enough evidence for your specific application of those scriptures, but who knows?
Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible
by flamegrilled 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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flamegrilled
SweetBabyCheezits - I agree it's important to approach things with a clean slate at the outset. I truly belive I have done that, and occasionaly revisit it again to check the foundation of my faith. It would go off topic to cover that here, but I am quite convinced in the existance of God. I agree with your basic point though.
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flamegrilled
wasblind - I don't want to get to bogged down in a Jehovah/Jesus discussion here. I don't disagree with your basic points. However I do believe that we can simultaneously be witnesses for more than one person or thing, and sometimes we can be witnesses for the same person, but with a different objective. In the big picture I believe we must be witnesses for God - and that then requires various ways of presenting the message according to the audience and the time period.
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wobble
Why does the Supreme Being need "witnesses", is he like the gods in Isaiah, unable to speak for Himself ?
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ShadesofGrey
Flamegrilled, I do not think that Christians are called to be pacifists.
We know that nations at times go unjustly to war, and at other times wars are entered for self defense, to protect the governmental authorities or in order to protect the innocent.
"And some soldiers were questioning him, saying, "And what about us, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages," ( Luke 3:14 ).
"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right," ( 1 Peter 2:13-14 )
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’ [a] ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That’s enough!” he replied. (Luke 22)
I think that Christians are called to defend the weak and defenseless. If Hitler broke into my house to take my children I would kill him. Why is it different if he or someone like him breaks into the house of my neighbor in another country?
Exodus 22:2 : "If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no blood guiltiness on his account."
The Bible also tells us to protect the innocent, Deut. 19:10 , "So innocent blood will not be shed in the midst of your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, and blood guiltiness be on you."
( Rom. 13:1-4 )
“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil.
Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it [government; the State] is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.”
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N.drew
Isaiah 42:10
Darby Bible Translation
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am HE: before me there was no ùGod formed, neither shall there be after me.Witnesses - Contracted from uwd ; concretely, a witness; abstractly, testimony; specifically, a recorder, i.e. Prince -- witness.
Know - acknowledge, acquainted with, advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware
A primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) (as follow) -- acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, (un-)awares, can(-not), certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be (ig-)norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have (knowledge), (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have (understanding), X will be, wist, wit, wot.
Yada.
In the last days mockers with their mockery will come.
By taking the NAME upon themselves is how they come mocking. They are "mocking" Israel. If they are not doing it for the mocking, is it still mocking? I don't know.
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ShadesofGrey
Isaiah 43:10
10 You are my witnesses, says the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no savior.
I love this. Love love this scripture.
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ShadesofGrey
Besides YHWH there is no Savior! Besides YHWH there is no god, not even "a god".
Isaiah 44:24 "This is what the LORD says--your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, who was with me?
Who is the Most Holy One of Israel? Is He not YHWH Himself?
Daniel 9: 24 “Seventyweeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy
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flamegrilled
wobble - I don't think anyone has ever asserted that God and/or Jesus need witnesses. It's just what they ask us to do.
ShadesofGrey - regarding war - I respect your point of view. I have wondered about Cornelius. It's not recorded that anyone told him to change his profession. So I understand the argument. Nevertheless on balance I think the principles of "kingdom no part of the world" override. I don't vote for human government - so I'm sure not going to kill for them. Ultimately all will "beat their swords in plowshares" - I don't mind getting a headstart on that even if I have jumped the gun.
N.Drew - re: your conclusion - I don't know either.
ShadesofGrey -on your last two posts you are getting into doctrine - trinity, etc. We should probably deal with that on another post at some point.
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Miles3
I'll try to address your questions first, but the vital part is not in those answers.
1) By this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (John 13:35). Sure I know that not all JWs do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine JWs will NOT kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.
Many religions forbid murder, and more religions than you imagine also condemn going to war. However, if you're just reading the WT publications you're still imagining the Witnesses are one of the only religion that does all of your 3.
I find it interesting that you frame the love issue as going to war or not. That's a doctrinal point, that's an apparence of love, and it's paraded as such by a cult that cares about the outward apparence and deserted Christ teachings. Some have already answered that, and sadly you didn't notice. You raise a doctrinal issue as proof of love, and for that doctrinal issue one could raise other Watchtower doctrinal issues that proves the contrary - the disregard for life (blood issue, doctrinal flip-flops about neutrality, civil service...), the disregard for childrens and women (the protection of pedophiles to protect the apparences, the guilting of raped women, the condomning of domestic rape, the lack of help to those victims when you tell them the need only pray more and trust in Jehovah to feel better), the destruction of families by the shunning doctrine...
As a JW in good standing (pioneer, talks in distric assemblies...) like you, I can assure you the Witnesses are one of the worst group when it's about agape love. That's part of being a high control cult, but you won't realise it before you start to associate with "worldy people". Inscribe yourself into a municipal association, go and help in a charity, check how much good your local churches do in helping the widow and the orphan - you'll find genuinely good and loving people, that don't show agape love only because they have to fill a report at the end of the month.
I've been raised as an outstanding witness by a single mom struggling with 3 kids and not enough money to pay the bills. I can assure you out of the 100+ publishers in our congregation, which where all aware of our financial situation, only one family ever helped us, twice, by bringing us some food (the brother wasn't an elder, and was one of those brothers the elder didn't want to give responsibilities because he didn't have a heart of stone). The elders never gave us anything, the congregation never either. That doesn't happen in Christian churches.
I was a pionner, and in all the congregations I've been I've seen how nobody visits the sick and poor. Disabled sisters never receive visits (unless they're from an elder family that cares for them), and the poor don't get any support. It's like "let them all die, God will recognise its own". On the other hand, I've seen first hand how most "spiritual" brothers and sisters are judgemental and unkind, whether towards worldy people or towards their own.
I've even had an elder tell me I'd never become an elder if I kept spending so much time associating with the rank and file. Shortly after, he was named a Circuit Overseer.
Then I got disabled, and had to stay bedridden for year (still have to). I only get 2 calls a year, coincidentaly just before the CO visit... Nothing else, no phone calls, no letters, no offer for help, no associating, even though they were my "friends" and I've given my whole life for the truth. And that's in the most spiritual congregation you could find (50% regular pioneers), in a foreign field, with most of the elders having done MTS and pionnering, and some moving on later to CO or missionary work.
The Witnesses aren't bad in themselves at all, most were quite good people before, but - like other high-control groups - the cult turns everyone but the independent thinkers into robots.
2) Preach the good news. Sure I know other religions try to an extent, but JWs are known for their preaching. One might disagree with the details of the message but I don't want to get into that here. They do certainly direct attention to God, Jesus and the kingdom.
There you're judging others again, not necessarily because you're a bad person, but because the WT propaganda has been ingrained in you that it feels -wrongly- like part of your personnality. Christian churches certainly "direct attention to God, Jesus and the kingdom". That's what they do, or they wouldn't call themselves Christians. As far as preachings, most churches preach the way the first Christians did, and I'd trust the example of the first century Christians over the personnal teachings of 20th century Rutherford.
The JW way of preaching has more to o with 20th century door-to-door salesmans practices than with anything Jesus ever taught. Picture Jesus coming back to earth at the end of a month and witnessing every one of his disciples forced to give a detail report of the "hours" they spent in the field. Whatever rationalizing you'd try to massage him with (but we need to be organized, we need to have law and order), he'd still throw out the Pharisees out of his church in no time, and go and clean Brooklin.
You know perfectly reports are there because as good businessmens the mens of the Watchtower are aware the Witness need that to go preaching as much as they do. That ministry is not a proof of agape love, neither is the different treatment people give to others in the congregation based on the hours they preach each month. If you want to be seen as "spiritual", you better spend more than 10 hours each month showing a group meetings than spend 50 hours a month helping and spiritually encouraging your weak, distressed, sick or disabled brothers - that's why nobody ever does it, even though Jesus would be horrified by it.
3) Gather together in worship. I include this one since I understand the arguments put forth in Ray Franz's book, but the NT really seems to be clear that some level of organized worship is required "and even more so as you behold the day drawing near".
All churches do that. Considering most churches do 2 and 3, and most do 1 better than the Witnesses (try it, you'll be surprised), and some of those also oppose military service, could the reason you haven't found one be that you've only be looking for a carbon copy of the Witnesses in those domains? Yet a clone of the Witnesses would mean another high-control cult that forsakes the spirit of the law for the apparences of Christianity...
As for military service though, consider that Jesus told his disciples to provides themselves with a sword. Whatever the Soceity wants you to beleive, you don't take a sword to fend of animals - a lance, a stick or an arc, but a sword would be useless. A sword is useless against animals, because humans don't have the reaction speed to fight an animal close range. Let a wolf or a bear into close range, and you're dead, whether you have a sword or not. A sword is only useful when fighting human beings, that's why hunter tribes didn't use swords. And a sword needs training before you can use one without cutting yourseld in the process, which means at least basic military training - the "martial arts" a Witness isn't supposed to do, because Jesus wouldn't want his disciples to use sword, would he?
Oh wait...
That post is getting long, fortunately the vital part is short and sweet:
You're letting the Watchtower frame your questions for you.
As long as you ignore that fact, the answers won't matter, because you perfectly know them, and you already know the truth about the Watchtower. You just can't (or don't want) yet ask yourself the real questions. Fact is, there is no spoon.