2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis (page 14)

cedars

davidl7 - wow, you've actually plummeted quite a bit in my estimations I'm afraid. You're the first person I've known to read BOTH Franz books and still reach the conclusion that the Watch Tower Society is God's spirit-directed organization. That's either incredible naivety or stupidity on your part, or perhaps both. I'm sorry to be so derisory, but you've honestly shocked me there. I think you would be perfect to serve on the Governing Body some day (assuming you feel you are of the anointed, and can convince others of this). I think it's only people like you who are able to stare facts in the face and come up with alternative conclusions based on emotion and veneration for a human organization that could 'serve' in that capacity.

Since you appear to be a true "hardcore" Watch Tower Society enthusiast, I would be interested in your answers to these questions:

YOU BEING ON THIS SITE - The July 15th 2011 Watchtower study article said (on page 16, paragraph 7) "What is involved in avoiding false teachers? We do not receive them into our homes or greet them. We also refuse to read their literature, watch TV programs that feature them, examine their Web sites,or add our comments to their blogs." Since you are so zealous in venerating the Governing Body, why have you chosen to disobey this direct counsel? Are there any other elements of counsel found in the publications that you feel equally inclined to disobey? And if so, why?
THE GOVERNING BODY - According to Witness doctrine, Jesus selected the bible students in 1919 to be his "Faithful and Discreet Slave". It is the Slave Class who are therefore responsible for feeding the "domestics". The Governing Body did not exist in 1919, and can only trace their roots as far back as 1944. Also, they claim to be "representatives" of the Slave Class - even though they do not communicate with them, or even know how many anointed there are on the Earth. The term "representative" implies that the Governing Body were chosen to serve in their role, but if so, who chose them - and where is the evidence? From where does the Governing Body receive its scriptural mandate to administer affairs on behalf of the Slave Class? Where in the bible does it say that the Slave Class will require a Governing Body to represent it? Do you have ONE scripture that supports the authority of the Governing Body in the role that they have chosen for themselves? This may prove challenging for you, since the term "Governing Body" does not appear once in the bible, as I'm sure you're aware.
INCREASING LIGHT - Please can you show me ONE scripture that shows how God's Holy Spirit has (or would) deliberately feed false information to his servants as a "makeweight" until truthful information is revealed at a later stage?

If you could answer the above scriptures honestly and scripturally, I would be very grateful.

Cedars

slimboyfat

David, I know very well that many Witnesses read apostate books. I read them when I was a Witness myself, and I knew a few others who did too. (Not all of whom have since left) The point is that they are not supposed to. If you doubt this then I challenge you to mention at a meeting that you read apostate books and that other Witnesses do too and see what happens. You will make yourself as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit.

Carolyn Wah gives a cursory reference to Penton in her article for the Review of Religious Research. I am not sure it is safe to assume from that she has read his books. But of course she may well have done so, and as a lawyer for the Society she is in a rather privileged position to be able to reference apostate works publicly as part of her work. (Johannes Wrobel is another prominent Witness who has probably read a lot of apostate literature as part of his work for the Society) Publicly talking about apostate texts however is obviously not something to be recommended to ordinary Witnesses who don't want to face censure.

The latest I heard Firpo Carr is no longer a Witness. Do you know different? Of course he has gone in and out of the JWs like a yo-yo, in part no doubt precisely because he does things like reference apostates in his books.

The editors of Your Word of Truth (Tony Byatt and Hal Flemings) actually state in the bibliography that they studiously avoided referencing any apostate works, for obvious reasons.

Greg Stafford may well have read apostate books while he was a Witness. But it is interesting that while he wanted to remain in favour with the organization he avoided referencing any apostate books: Jehovah's Witnesses Defended in its first two editions does not reference a single apostate book. Only when he made certain disagreements with the Watchtower organization public in his Three Dissertations did he begin referencing apostate authors like Ray Franz, Penton and Jonsson.

Hey I read lots of apostate books before I left the Witnesses mentally too. Possibly I read even more than you David! Being able to read apostate stuff and still remain a Witness did not make me smart, as I once thought it did. It made me very dumb indeed.

Your argument that elders won't necessarily DF people for reading apostate stuff, but try and help them back into the organization instead, misses the point and you know it. Try not only telling your elders that you read apostate stuff, but that you plan on continuing to do so, and that you debate with apostates on sites like this, and then see what happens. You know yourself what will happen I don't need to spell it out.

Regardless of what else the Watchtower teaches it does not practise freedom. I find that more than disqualifies any other possible merits JWs beliefs may have I am afraid.

slimboyfat

You're the first person I've known to read BOTH Franz books and still reach the conclusion that the Watch Tower Society is God's spirit-directed organization.

I did it too cedars, for a few years. It's hard going but it is possible.

I actually found that it was authors like the Bottings, Holden, Beckford, Singelenberg and other social scientists that helped me abandon the Witness mindset more than flat out apostate books.

punkofnice

You know when you read a thread and see a lively discussion going on and you think you'll keep out of it. I promised I'd keep out of this one.

Here's me breaking that promise.

David7 =

Actually anyone reading the WT publications will note that numerous times it strongly encourages Bible reading...

“Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.”—The Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 587

“They say that it is sufficient to read the bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago…”—The Watchtower, August 15, 1981, pp. 28-29

............................only read the Bible with watchtower goggles on!

Why? So you can be 'mind cleansed' ....er......mind = brian........cleansed = washed!!

(Watchtower, June 1, 1953, p. 350 par. 24). 24 In these closing days of wickedness Jehovah’s people must demonstrate holiness. They must not foul their minds with the filthy mental food on the propaganda tables of this old world, but must feed on the feast of fat things Jehovah provides. (Isa. 25:6; 28:8) Minds must be cleansed and made over, mental circuits formed by old-world thinking and acting faded out and new ones put in according to new-world specifications.

cedars

Slimboyfat:

I did it too cedars, for a few years. It's hard going but it is possible.

In that case, perhaps I've underestimated the degree of mind control that is exerted on Witnesses. You don't strike me as stupid OR naive (quite the opposite in fact), and yet like David, you were somehow able to stick to your guns for a while before finally giving up the "fine fight" against logic and reason. I was completely won over after reading that book, but I will admit that I harbored doubts to begin with. Perhaps that helped.

By the way, I didn't really find CoC to be "flat out apostate". It wasn't encouraging anyone to leave the Witness faith per se, it was merely pointing out that it is a flawed human religion just like any other.

Punkofnice: some good quotes. I'm not quite sure why David challenged me on whether the Society encourages bible reading, because that was never in question. My point was that they encourage you to read the bible with the aid of their publications, as your references testify. I was trying to turn this reasoning round to show the importance of objectively researching the Watch Tower Society with the aid of the internet, but despite being fairly "savvy" for an apologist I think he still feels scared to take the plunge.

Cedars

bohm

I have an odd sence of dejavu...

punkofnice

cedars - of lebanon? -

I'm not quite sure why David challenged me on whether the Society encourages bible reading, because that was never in question.

Well mi'old duck. I think I was a bit like this when in the WBT$. I would flail around like a tit in a trance. Perhaps the dissonance shifts his perceptions out of sync. Poor bloke. At least he seems to enjoy a chat with us 'MDA's'!*

PS. Who's that in the cheese cutter? A rellie?

*Mentally Diseased Apostates.

cedars

PS. Who's that in the cheese cutter? A rellie?

Affirmative!

Cedars (of Point Ohio)

jehovahsheep

david7-i have a newsflash for ya!armageddon occured in 70 ad.stop publishing false good news.

Mary

Bookmarked for reading later.

2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis

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