Since I left in 2006, the annointed number has rocketed.
What is the explanation for this?
Soon it'll be up at, er, 144 000.
What is the official line on the increase?
2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis
by jwfacts 220 Replies latest watchtower bible
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mrquik
They'll be dropping the literal number doctrine fairly soon I imagine. This will be bought by the rank & file without batting an eyelash. I stopped into a coffee shop on Saturday morning to see old "friends" warming up from field service while trying not to look at me. Now I just smile back & enjoy life. I had a close friend of 40 yrs. die & no one could be bothered to let me know. So here's a quick note to an old friend. John- sorry to hear of your death. I remember your humor & humility. I pass under a bridge on the NYS Thruway every morning & imagine all who have gone before me on the bridge looking down. I'll add you as well. See you again somewhere....sometime. TAG.
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Hoffnung
Interesting discussion to follow.
To come back on Slimboyfat, regarding the use of Jehovah or Yahweh in the New Testament, it might be argumented that this is not incorrect to insert the name in quotations of the Hebrew Scriptures. However, of the 237 occurences in the New World Translations, not even HALF of these are quotations. Hence it can only be called an alteration of the text. This becomes very apparent from Acts onwards. In many cases, replacing 'Jehovah' with the original word from the Greek Text (mostly Kyrios), will identify it clearly with Jesus. That this definitely has an influence on meaning and understanding is obvious, and it has to be condemned.
One question I have for David, if you believe that many came to the same understanding like the Witnesses by reading the bible alone. It has to be said that more religions teach that Jesus is not the Almighty God, that he is not part of a Trinity and that there is no such thing like an immortal soul. However, very few teach an resurrection and life in paradise on earth. Not even the Witnesses for a long time in their existence. So this is my challenge for David: please prove from the Greek Scriptures alone (because Christ removed the Mosaic law as he fullfilled it), the earthly hope of life forever in paradise. Nobody who reads the Greek Scriptures by himself will come to this conclusion. Good luck.
Hoffnung
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Vanderhoven7
marked
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slimboyfat
Jehovah is also used in phrases that allude to OT testament usages such as "the word of the Lord" and "the angel of the Lord". This accounts for a lot of the instances where Jehovah is used in Acts, Luke, and elsewhere in NWT of the New Testament.
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Vanderhoven7
Hoffnung:
Who do you think is going to live on the new earth?
Revelation 21 (NIV)
A New Heaven and a New Earth
1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” [a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ [b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia [c] in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits [d] thick. [e] 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. [f] 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
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Hoffnung
Thank for the reply. However, nowhere is it stated in the Greek Scriptures that Jesus did not have angels under his command, rather the opposite. Hence "the angel of the Lord" should not be interpreted automatically as "the angel of Jehovah".
The invalidity of your 2nd point about "the word of the lord" is illustrated in 1 Thess 4:15, 16 (NWT): "For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." Greek word Kurios in all 3 occurences.
How do you understand these verses if you replace "Jehovah" by "Lord"? If "the presence of the Lord" is clearly identifying Jesus, and if the descendance from heaven from the Lord is also about Jesus, is it not a correct conclusion that "the word of the Lord" in this verse, is the word of Jesus as well?
Let us take a few more occurences:
Acts 6:59, 60 (NWT): And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].
Which Ot verse is quoted here? If Stephen appealed to Jesus in verse 59, was he not appealing to Jesus either in verse 60? (Greek word Kurie both occurences)
Acts 13:1-12 - in the NWT, Jehovah occurs 4 times (v2,10, 11 & 12), and there is not even one of them a quotation or anything else that could identify either Jehovah or Jesus. Why is Jehovah used in the NWT?
Acts 21:14, (NWT), Then Paul answered: “What are YOU doing by weeping and making me weak at heart? Rest assured, I am ready not only to be bound but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” 14 When he would not be dissuaded, we acquiesced with the words: “Let the will of Jehovah take place.”
Greek word Kurios in both occurences. If Paul refers to Jesus as the Lord in v.13, is Jesus also the Lord in v.14? If this was not intended, would the writer not have written "God" instead?
If you want some more examples, please let me know.
Hoffnung
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Hoffnung
Hello Vanderhoven,
Good point you make, and I am glad you bring it up. The question is not "Who do you think is going to live on the new earth?", but, is this "new earth" also the "literal earth" as we know it? Because if it cannot positively identified with the "literal, material earth", then there is no reason to believe that the paradise will be on this "literal" earth either. The context of this chapter (Rev 20:11 - 22:5) gives a few enlightening statements:
When the devil is hurled in the lake of fire Rev 20:11 reads (NWT): "And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them". If the "old" earth fled away, is it likely we will live upon it, or that the paradise will be made upon it? I don't think so. Nowhere in chapter 21 the "old" or literal, material earth" is coming back. In the last part of ch 21 and beginning of ch 22 the holy city Jerusalem, the new temple and the river of water of life is shown, and they are all connected together in John's vision. The river was "flowing out from the throne of God (which is in heaven) and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way (of the holy city jerusalem, which has descended from heaven Rev 21:2). And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing t welve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations. (which are living on the "new earth").
Do you estimate it for normal that a river of water flows from heaven onto the literal earth? It is quite obvious that the language used for "new heaven" and "new earth" is highly symbolic, referring to the place where the newly resurrected live, but as no river of water flows from outer space onto the earth, a literal earth is not a possibility.
Furthermore, Rev 21: 23, 24 states there is no need for light of the sun or moon, and the night does not exist, things you would expect there to be on a literal earth. It reads in the NWT: "And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. 24 And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there." Furthermore, no physical person can whitstand the glory of God and yet live (remember Moses), and therefore I don't think the resurrection is in the flesh.
All these verses tell me John was not writing about a literal earth, and hence, Revelation 21:3, 4 cannot be used to advocate life in a paradise on earth. Looking forward to your rebuttal.
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Hoffnung
By the way, interesting rendering of Revelation 21: 3, 4 in the NIV: And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them.
Can God dwell among people with a physical body, exposing them to his radiant glory? The chance of them surviving this is quite small. One more reason why the resurrection is with a spiritual body, and not with flesh and bones.
Hoffnung
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Vanderhoven7
Hoffnung
Revelation 21: 3, 4 in the NIV: And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them.Can God dwell among people with a physical body, exposing them to his radiant glory?
Jesus' resurrection was bodily. He remained in that immortal, spiritual (as opposed to spirit) body on earth 40 days before His ascention. The Man Christ Jesus will return bodily to earth for His Bride. His resurrection body is a prototype for our own.
If you examine the use of the word "earth" in Revelation, it is clear that the present physical earth (prior to the recreation) is being described. It would be an wrong to teach as anything but assumption, that the new earth will not be literal as well. BTW the concept of a new heavens and a new earth is not only found in Revelation.
My assumption, is that spirit begotten believers will dwell on this earth and not have a disembodied spirit existence in some other-worldly place beyond the stars.
Here is an article I picked up which may shed some light on renewed earth eschatology.
Heaven: Pie in the Sky...? (Part 1)
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen 1.1)
"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good" (Gen 1.31).
"Cursed is the ground because of you" (Gen 3.17b)
"So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden" (Gen 3.23)
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"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth" (Isa 65.17)
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure" (Isa 66.22)
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"For creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice" (Rom 8.20)
"Creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the
glorious freedom of the children of God" (Rom 8.21)
"The whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth" (Rom 8.22)
"We wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies" (Rom 8.23)
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"In keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth" (2 Pt 3.13)
"I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away" (Rev 21.1)
"I saw ... the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven ... 'Now the dwelling of God is with men'" (Rev 21.2)
"No longer will there be any curse" (Rev 22.3)
Some of my closest friends believe that the goal of God's salvation work is a pure "spiritual" existence that is called heaven. These friends have loved ones that ask questions, reflecting that pure "spiritual" existence idea, like "will we know each other in heaven?" They ask this question because they have assumed that "I" won't know "you" because you aren't "really" you anymore. Rather you are some kind of disembodied spirit.
I believe in heaven fervently and pray for its coming everyday. Yet I completely reject as not only unbiblical, but as alien to the tenor of the scriptures that notion of pure "spiritual" existence some claim as heaven. The idea seems to reflect common Platonic and neo-gnostic views of creation and matter than what I read in the Hebrew Bible, New Testament and the Jewish literature of the day that illuminates the world of Jesus and the apostles. (This may or may not be true and will be investigated more fully. I do not wish to engage in ad hominem reasoning myself ... just to point out there in the beginning of Christianity there were at least two very distinct worldviews and they have a bearing on this discussion). Some of my friends, when we have talked about this, have gone nearly ape on me. I think their emotional reactions are unfortunate. They have engaged in very little argumentation and even littler exegesis to demonstrate this pure "spiritual" existence.
I have no, absolutely no, desire to get into a debate on this matter or to be contentious about it. I hope to share my thoughts (briefly) on things I think pertain to this subject. ...I began here simply quoting Scripture. It is amazes me how the beginning of Genesis, the "plot" of Scripture that follows, and the end of Revelation all tie together around the idea of creation and new creation. God's goal in redemption is to reverse the curse and restore the intimacy that was lost in the Garden. I believe the narrative of Scripture more than sustains this proposition.
Some try to "disprove" renewed earth eschatology by engaging in classic ad hominem arguments. I noticed this in a recent article published by a brother on heaven. This common fallacy is also known as "poisoning the well." It is a very easy way to divert attention but never gets around to addressing the arguments put forward. For example when a critic associates the view with "Jehovah’s Witnesses," “denominational writers,” “millennial doctrines” and “wandering off into sectarian ideology” he is simply wanting one to associate it with folks his or her constituents want nothing to do with ... but it says nothing about the validity or the lack thereof of the position. In fact such smoke and mirrors is neither helpful nor even relevant. In fact this can be down right deceptive if by “millennial doctrines” our critics mean premillennialism (and through personal conversation I know this is exactly what some mean by "millennial doctrines"). Renewed earth eschatology has been around long before anything looking like the premillennialism of Tim Lahaye and Hal Lindsey. Anthony Hoekema even articulates the view nicely while critiquing the premillennial point of view in The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views edited by Robert G. Clouse. Further Alexander Campbell and Jonathan Edwards were anything but premillennialists. Neither is John Piper or James Packer. New Earth and premillennialism are separate issues and trying to stick them together is a mistake.
The attempt to wave a wand and dismiss renewed earth eschatology through ad hominem means is poor workmanship. The texts cited above are only the beginning but even these cry out for understanding.
Rather renewed eschatology is rooted in a specific belief of what God accomplished through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is further rooted in a specific understanding of the purpose of God's good creation. It is rooted in the belief that Christ's resurrection was bodily for a reason and that our own resurrection will be like his. And further it is rooted in the firm theological belief that Satan did not thwart God's plan. Redemption goes as far as the curse is found. If Christ's victory does not go as deep and far as the curse then what victory is it? But the blood of Jesus did overcome and the resurrection did overturn the curse.
Until next time ...
Shalom,
Bobby Valentine- - - -
P.S. We are kinda hyjacking this thread. Why not start afresh...if this subject is one you wish to pursue.