Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?

by I_love_Jeff 224 Replies latest jw friends

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Sis,

    Thank you for disagreeing so agreeably. :o)

    As for the groaning..in context

    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    Rom 8:24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?
    Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    Rom 8:26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;
    Rom 8:27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    I would agree with Clarke when he writes:

    The Spirit also helpeth our infirmities - The same Spirit, το πνευμα, mentioned before as bearing witness with ours that we are the children of God; and consequently it is not a disposition or frame of mind, for the disposition of our mind surely cannot help the infirmities of our minds.

    The word συναντιλαμβανεται is very inadequately expressed by helpeth. It is compounded of συν, together, αντι, against, and λαμβανομαι, to support or help, and signifies such assistance as is afforded by any two persons to each other, who mutually bear the same load or carry it between them. He who prays, receives help from the Spirit of God; but he who prays not receives no such help. Whatever our strength may be, we must put it forth, even while most implicitly depending on the strength of God himself.

    For we know not what we should pray for as we ought - And should therefore be liable to endless mistakes in our prayers, if suitable desires were not excited by the Holy Spirit and power received to bring these desires, by prayer, before the throne of grace.

    But the Spirit itself - Αυτο το πνευμα, The same Spirit, viz. the Spirit that witnesses of our adoption and sonship, Rom_8:15, Rom_8:16, makes intercession for us. Surely if the apostle had designed to teach us that he meant our own sense and understanding by the Spirit, he never could have spoken in a manner in which plain common sense was never likely to comprehend his meaning. Besides, how can it be said that our own spirit, our filial disposition, bears witness with our own spirit; that our own spirit helps the infirmities of our own spirit; that our own spirit teaches our own spirit that of which it is ignorant; and that our own spirit maketh intercession for our own spirit, with groanings unutterable? This would have been both incongruous and absurd. We must therefore understand these places of that help and influence which the followers of God receive from the Holy Ghost; and consequently, of the fulfillment of the various promises relative to this point which our Lord made to his disciples, particularly in Joh_14:16, Joh_14:17, Joh_14:26; Joh_15:26, Joh_15:27; Joh_16:7; and particularly Joh_16:13, Joh_16:14 : Howbeit, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    I do not believe the Holy Spirit is another person. It is God's Active Force, his energy.

    The Active Force is energy that has the ability to completely surround and protect, or destroy.

    Spirit energy is not always seen, but sometimes felt. At Mt. Sinai, God's presence was invisible but the physical manifestations were thunders and lightning. God's power to be present on this planet was in a spiritual form of his Active Force. That’s why it can be said that God or Christ are present by proxy; that being accomplished by angelic deputies that are empowered to carry out his will.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Rom 8:26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; Rom 8:27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    I understand where you're coming from and why, dear one (again, peace to you!): where to include a capital "s"... and where not to... and whether that "spirit" spoken of here is a "him"... versus an "it." Unfortunately, men (scribes) have made the decision as to these, and erroneously so. So, let's look at it from a LOGICAL point of view, shall we? Verse 27 can help us do that. There is states:

    "he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the [s]pirit."

    Okay, you believe a capital "s", no problem. Who, may I ask, though, is the "he" that so searches? Can't be God... because that "he" makes intercession "according to the WILL of God." If it were God, then it would "according to HIS will." Yes? So, God's is out at the "he". Who else, then, searches the heart? Is it not Christ... the One who knows what is IN a man? Matthew 11:27; John 1:47, 48; 2:24, 25; John 13:21; Matthew 26:21

    Now, let's look at the "himself" (i.e., "the Spirit himself"). The Greek word there, "autos", is translated at "itself" as well as "himself/herself". The KJV uses "itself," for whatever that's worth. Even so, if it was meant that the Holy Spirit "himself" made intercession for us, as a third person, we have a conundrum:

    First, what need, then, is there for CHRIST to intercede for us? If the Holy Spirit is another entity AND "he" pleads/makes intercession for us... then Christ is not our mediator: this "Holy Spirit" is.

    Second, if a third person Holy Spirit makes intercession for us... then the "he" that searches the heart can't BE this same Holy Spirit, because the "he" know the MIND "of the Spirit." Why write that the Holy Spirit knows the mind of the Holy Spirit? Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit know the mind of GOD?

    If, however, you read the verses in the context of what was MEANT, you would find that it is OUR spirit that groans with words unuttered... because we don't always know what to SAY, to CONFESS and ask forgiveness FOR, or to ask for outside of forgiveness... and he that searches the heart, Christ... the Holy Spirit... who KNOWS... what OUR spirit is TRYING to say... then intercedes FOR us... before God. HE translates the groanings of OUR spirit, so that when he goes before the MOST Holy... HE knows what to say, what to ask/plead FOR... even though WE don't.

    But, as with all other things, you absolutely do NOT have to take MY word for this... and I know you know that. May you be given ears, then, if you so wish them, so as to hear and get the sense of this truth that I have shared with you.

    Please know, though... all you who are putting your faith in a "Holy Spirit" that is anyone or anything OTHER than the resurrected and glorified Christ... are doing the EXACT same thing as the WTBTS and other "christian" religions: trying to enter through some OTHER "Way." By looking to, calling upon, and putting faith in a "Holy Spirit" that is OTHER than the glorified Christ. In doing so you, like them, are failing to KISS the SON. There is nothing... and no one... between us and God, except him! There is NO [other] person called the "Holy Spirit" who opens to you (Matthew 25:11, 12; John 10:9; Revelation 3:8). It is not some person called the "Holy Spirit" who "knocks", so that YOU can open to HIM (Revelation 3:20; Luke 12:36).

    There is only One Way into the MOST Holy, dear ones... and it is THROUGH... the Holy. Thus, it is CHRIST, the Holy Spirit, who says, "I... am the WAY, the Truth, and the Life; NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME!" Because there is absolutely NO other way... He, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit... CHRIST... is the ONLY One who can dispense the life force of God, holy spirit... His blood, breath, and seed.

    If, on the other hand, you understand and recognize that SON as the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17)... then you have grasped yet another "sacred secret" that has not been "opened" to all.

    I hope this helps, dear one, and, again, I bid you (all) peace!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi TS,

    How do you explain:

    Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    Only persons can be saddened.

    Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    Only persons have minds/thoughts

    1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Only persons have wills

    Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

    Only persons express their desires and thoughts vocally

    2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty

    The Lord is a person

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Vanderhoven7,

    Thanks for your input.

    Re: Ephesians 4:30

    My personal understanding is that this scripture is not saying the Holy Spirit or Active Force is a seperate entity, rather it is an extension of God, or his presence.

    When we think of God we can't think in human terms. The Holy Spirit is the presence he uses when He wishes to go beyond his throne. It's as if he were present where the Holy Spirit goes to. At any moment, God can reach out from his throne to administer judgement.

    I think the same could be said of 1 Corinthians 12:11

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    The main doctrine of Christendon is that of the Trinity, that there are three divine persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost). Each is said to be eternal, and each is said to be almighty; each one is believed to be God but they are lumped together as one single God.

    There is only one almighty God who is the Father, the mighty god being his son Jesus, who was God's first creation.The mystery of the Trinity is no more mysterious than unity which is what bonds the Father, the son and the Spirit or God's active force together.

  • Twitch
    Twitch

    The Force will be with you, always.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    each one is believed to be God but they are lumped together as one single God.

    Not really lumped together. One God Almighty, YHWH, with a triune nature.

    “Person” should be regarded as a contemporary misnomer, an imperfect expression because it connotes a separate rational and moral individual. It is a word erroneously derived from the Latin persona and misapplied in the English modern era, as the Jehovah's Witnesses have done.

    Persona: A Latin word regularly used to refer to the three ‘persons’ of the Trinity and to the one ‘person’ of Christ. It therefore fulfills the role in Latin theology performed by hypostasis in Greek. The natural translation into ‘person’ in English is misleading. Persona originally meant a ‘mask’ and then a ‘role.’ It is used to indicate an individual in his or her external presentation, and does not convey the idea of self-consciousness or the internal psychological content suggested by the English word ‘person’ with its close link to the word ‘personality.’ (Oxford, 1210)

    http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#2

    There is only one almighty God who is the Father,

    Trinitarians agree. And that Almighty God is YHWH

    the mighty god being his son Jesus,

    This is a false teaching, and mischaracterizes the Trinity. Jesus is the Mighty God, as it says in Isaiah 9:6, but that God is YHWH and not some little "a god,", as it says in the next two words: the child born to us is Mighty God, "Eternal Father." That is but one of many reasons. Immanent trinity, the nature of God in himself before creation, does not include Jesus who was not yet born. Jesus is God-Man, God the Son. And because the Word is eternal, he could not be created.

    who was God's first creation.

    This is arianism, and another false teaching.The Word was not created, and the evidence is overwhelming. Some of it is right here:

    The eternal Christ was not created - (Isaiah 9:6)[Top]

    In addition to Jesus Christ’s omnipotence, he is and always has been eternal, a Scriptural truth strongly denied by the Jehovah's Witnesses who teach, incorrectly, that Jesus is a created being granted immortality only after his resurrection. But even Isaiah 9:6 in the Jehovah's Witnesses’ New World Translation disproves that theory where Christ is referred to as “Eternal Father.”

    For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be on his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

    The preexistent Christ’s eternal nature is not the result of a forward-looking grant of immortality as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach, but is a condition that has always been because “He is before all things” (Colossians 1:17), and he created all things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). There are only two options: He was created or He is eternal, but since He was before all things and created all things, He must be eternal.

    To counter this, Colossians 1:15-17 in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation (NWT) inserts the word [other] four times so that it reads:

    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.

    The Jehovah's Witnesses’ insertion of the word [other] does not change the clear language and meaning of Paul’s discourse. They reason:

    (3) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to pan’ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 [similar to Luke 13:2] so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created … All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation, produced by God. (Reasoning, 408 - 409)

    Such an arbitrary addition is based on a distorted reading of Luke 13:2 and the supposed over-all “context” of their Bible. They justify inserting “other” in four places here because the overall context of the Bible, in their opinion, requires it, and because some other Bibles insert “other” into Luke 13:2 where it had not existed before (Reasoning 408, 409). Luke 13:2 provides:

    At that very season there were certain ones present that reported to him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. So in reply he said to them: “Do you image that these Galileans were proved worse sinners than all other Galileans because they have suffered these things? No, indeed, I tell you; but, unless you repent, you will all likewise be destroyed.” (NWT)

    “The death of the Galileans at the hands of Pilate” were “timely reminders of the need for all to repent, for the victims of these tragedies should not be considered outstanding sinners who were singled out for punishment” (NAB notes 13, 1-5).

    Equating Luke 13:1-3 with Colossians 1:15-17 is improper because inserting “other” into Luke 13:2 was not necessary and did not change the nature or status of the Galileans referred to. In the English language “other” might have helped clarify the object of the sentence but it could have been omitted. Leaving verse 2 as it was would still convey the same meaning - that of all Galileans, those killed by Pilate were not particularly worse sinners. Adding “other” here does not convert the Galileans into something entirely different; it does not turn them into Martians.

    Inserting “other” into Colossians 1:15-17, on the other hand, fundamentally alters the object of those verses, Christ the Word, by downgrading Him from eternal God the Son to that of a creature; from God to not-god. Nothing could be more radical, theologically speaking, or heretical.

    Furthermore, such unsubstantiated alteration of Scripture violates the context of verse 15, Hebrews 1:3, Philippians 2:6 and 2 Corinthians 4:4. Hebrews 1:3 states that Christ is “the express image of His essence (Green’s Literal Translation). Here, image (Greek charaktar) denotes that the Son is “literally equal to” God, “of whose essence He is the imprint. It is the fact of complete similarity which this word stresses” (Strong and Vines, 269).

    Philippians 2:6 says that the Word existed in the form (Greek morphe) of God prior to His incarnation. Here, form (morphe) means nature or essence, but not in the abstract, subsisting in the individual (Strong and Vine’s, 167). “It includes the whole nature and essence of deity” (ibid.). And at 2 Corinthians 4:4, the “image of God” means that Christ is “essentially and absolutely the perfect expression of the Archtype, God the Father” (Strong and Vine’s, 77).

    [I]n Colossians 1:15, “the image of the invisible God “gives the additional thought suggested by the word “invisible,” that Christ is the visible representation and manifestation of God to created beings; (5c) the likeness expressed in this manifestation is involved in the essential relations in the Godhead and is therefore unique and perfect; “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father,” John 14:9. (ibid., 77)

    As such, Luke 13:2 cannot serve as justification for altering the very nature and identity of Christ. Inserting “other” into Colossians 1:16, 17 in order to convert Christ to nothing more than a man or a created angel would obliterate all parallel contextual verses which show that the Word Christ was and is the exact imprint of deity, a perfect match, an exact equivalent with the divine essence. Inserting “other” would result in a “created” Christ being something far less than what He truly is.

    When determining what context within which to assess the nature and identity of Christ it is best to start at the beginning and move forward in time, to reach back as far as possible. And in the beginning there was the Word (John 1:1) and the Word was before all things (Colossians 1:17) and all things were created by Him and through Him and for Him (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). This is the proper context within which to begin to analyze subsequent Scripture. You don’t end here.

    By now it should be evident that the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t conform to context, they create it.

    It is understandable why the Jehovah's Witnesses altered the Bible to accommodate their idea of what they wish it said. Had the preexistent Word been a created being he could not have been “before all things,” nor could He have “created all things” (Colossians 1:16, 17) which would by necessity have included himself. But, since the Bible says that the Word was “before all things” and “without Him nothing came to be” (John 1:3) Christ the Word cannot have been created. It is absolutely impossible … unless you change the Bible.

    Lastly, as expounded on in section 19(A) the baptismal formula at Matthew 28:19 reflects in one sentence the Trinitarian doctrine of three Persons as one by virtue of the singular “name” into which Christian believers are to be baptized. By means of logical deduction Christ must be eternal in accordance with the baptismal formula.

    For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses would have Christians baptized under three distinct and separate authorities which is scripturally unfounded. If they were right, and the Son is separate from the Father, the Holy Spirit must also be separate from the Father, but that in turn would imply that the Father was without His electrical current or authority and He is not all powerful. If, on the other hand, the Holy Spirit is inseparable from the Father then neither can the Son be separate from the Father because Christ is the Spirit.

    To illustrate further, Paul taught at Romans 8:9-11 that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ and 2 Corinthians 3:17 teaches that Jehovah God (or the Lord) is the Spirit (NWT; “the Lord is the Spirit” RSV). And, it is this Spirit, the Holy Spirit, that dwells within the Christian believer. Thus, there are not two separate Spirits that reside within, God’s and Christ’s, but one Spirit, according to Ephesians 4:4.

    There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

    But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Sprit of God really dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you. (Romans 9:8-11 RSV)

    Jehovah is the spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:17 NWT; “the Lord is the Spirit” RSV)

    However, if, as the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach, the preexistent Christ is a created creature only, then the Holy Spirit must also have been created and accordingly there would have been a time when there was no Holy Spirit and therefore God would have lacked power and authority and would not have been omnipotent, according to their theory. But, since the Holy Spirit is eternal, which the Jehovah's Witnesses must concede, and the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, and this Spirit is the Holy Spirit, Christ the Word must be eternal.

    Not surprisingly, the Jehovah’s Witnesses changed Romans 8:10 by inserting the word “union,” so that Christ is not in the believer, but only in union with the believer, writing: “But if Christ is in union with you, the body indeed is dead on account of sin …” NWT).

    http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20

    The mystery of the Trinity is no more mysterious than unity which is what bonds the Father, the son and the Spirit or God's active force together.

    Not sure what you mean by this. The trinity doctrine isn't all that mysterious and it is perfectly reasonable, even if some people don't understand it.

  • ShadesofGrey
    ShadesofGrey

    A) There is one God. He is a Spirit. A physical man cannot understand the spiritual. God can do anything and be anywhere. He is Jesus Christ. He is the Father in the heavens. He is the Holy Spirit. He is inside of me. He gives me love, joy, strength, peace, wisdom, patience, and speaks to me and through me. AT times I can feel the Spirit and at times I can hear Him. God is also in control of any given situation so that his will is done in my life and yours. I have witnessed this.

  • tec
    tec

    Thanks for sharing that Shelby.

    You know, my mother said something very simple to me a few years ago. So simple a child could grasp it. At the time I was well into my study with the witnesses, and I scoffed at it. But it stuck with me later, and still does.

    She said that she always thought the Holy Spirit was Christ. Otherwise, why did Christ have to die in order for the Holy Spirit to come to us? Because it was Him coming to us as Spirit.

    So Christ died in the flesh, then came to us in Spirit... as the Holy Spirit. Isn't that the order of things that we are taught will happen to those who belong to Him? Body dies, spirit lives (born again as spirit)?

    You may know that this is one of the things I have struggled with. But I just wanted to share that, and thank you for what you shared. And you are right... Christ is our mediator. No one comes to the Father, but through Him.

    Peace to you,

    Tammy

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