The Value of a Godless World

by cantleave 109 Replies latest jw friends

EntirelyPossible

EP...I did not move any goalposts...You were talking human trafficking...I was talking slavery which includes everything that falls into that category including child slavery...or if you prefer the term...'child labour'...sounds a bit nicer doesn't it?
While we are at it...I would also include Child soldiers in the slavery category...
Ah, so when you chose to split human trafficking and child labor stats from unicef into two different categories in your earlier posts, were you just not aware that you did, was it simple incompetence? You initially split them and suddenly when the numbers demonstrate that your position is flawed, you want to merge them? That's the definition of moving the goalposts, especially since you were the one that posted the unicef numbers as separate topics.
As I said, you can do that, but then you need to do the math to make it relevant.
I don't see how using your statistics achieves anything...
That's not my problem. You can choose to educate yourself so you will understand, but your lack of knowledge it not my problem.
Lets say we had 500 road deaths last year...and this year that number dropped to 450...statistically that is an improvement...but is it really? We still had 450 road deaths this year. Go and tell their relatives that it's an improvement...
Awwww... look at you being all adorable and trying to play the emotion card!
Tell you what, since you want to play that game, go tell the 50 people who would have died that they don't deserve to. Go telll their kids that mommy and daddy should died and they should be orphans. Or, since they DIDN'T die, you could look at 50 more parents, childrend, brothers, sisters and grandparents that are alive as an improvement.
I doubt you will, however, since you are determined to see the world as a horrible place. I wonder what is wrong with you, what happened to turn you into this bitter person that can't see the good in anything.
I can see why you form the arguments that you do. Why you need to play with statistics.
Because the way to know if something is getting better is to measure it. And you have to know HOW to measure it. Concepts beyond you, apparently. You can learn them if you like. I will teach you. Besides that, math is fun. You can do all sorts of interesting things with it.
Thinking that you are so superior to another person that YOU think that that is morals....that self induced superiority gives you the right to claim that YOU are educating someone else....and then if they don't listen to YOU they need to be disciplined.
I don't think I am superior to anyone. If you feel that I think I am, that's your right. If I know something you don't (in this case, how and why to measure things) and I explain it to you, I am not necessarily educating you, I am giving you the opportunity to learn. Whether or not you take advantage of that opportunity is up to you.
And I never said you needed to be disciplined. I think you misunderstood. I said that saying what you were going to do, giving a warning and then keeping your word about the next action was similar to the way you discipline a small child. Regarding you I specifically said I was going to mock you for being willfully ignorant, and I did. I said what I was going to do, warned you and then did it. Truthful, honest and delivered on my word.
If you cannot see that that behaviour is similar to the attitude that feeds slavery then there really is no point in this discussion. Although I had that feeling already after your display of 'discipline' earlier.
Wow, I take back everything I said. You really are just dumber than a bag of hammers. No one is oppressing you or holding you down or forcing you to post stupid things. You have been given the opportunity to learn and wasted it. That is your right as a free person. As a free person, you also get to suffer the consequences, good or bad, of your actions. Too bad you don't like it.
God help the children in this world if this is the type of discipline that is metered out to them.
Of course not. Children need help, guidance, love and encouragment. You, as an adult, are choosing to be willfully ignorant. Totally different situation.
Now by all means...begin to throw your toys of of the cot like you did earlier...I am not listening to you...I see no 'value' in it.
I know you don't. Being bitter and negative all isn't helping you to get over that, either.
EntirelyPossible

What that VALUE is, however, depends on MAN.
If man is no more than an "evolved mammal" then there is no reason to see Man as anything more than just another "dominate species" in a given period of time onm this Planet.
But the beauty of that is that, due to how we have evolved, we can CHOOSE to behave in better ways. In general, I think we are getting better at it. The ability to make that choice is awesome.
still thinking

Slavery predates written records and has existed in many cultures. [3] The number of slaves today is higher than at any point in history, [4] remaining as high as 12 million [5] to 27 million, [6] [7] [8] though this is probably the smallest proportion of the world's population in historyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
It really depends on HOW you want to look at it doesn't it?
I prefer to look at it from the human point of view...the actual day to day human cost of slavery.
So going back to the basic figures that you were using as in the quote above...excluding the figures for child labour etc...what we have is...
The number of slaves today being higher than in any point in history....just because slavery hasn't kept up with the population explosion that we have experienced over the last few decades...does not mean the problem is getting better...or that morals towards this problem have improved just because the population is growing at a phenominal rate..
For the last 50 years, world population multiplied more rapidly than ever before, and more rapidly than it is projected to grow in the future. In 1950, the world had 2.5 billion people; and in 2005, the world had 6.5 billion people. By 2050, this number could rise to more than 9 billion (see chart "World Population Growth, 1950-2050"). http://www.prb.org/Educators/TeachersGuides/HumanPopulation/PopulationGrowth.aspx
For example....
If you had a town and they had
50 slaves.......500 citizens
and the towns population increased dramatically over a short period of time, lets say 10 years to triple the population but slavery only increased by double the amount ie
100 slaves.........1500 citizens
yes....statistically slavery has decreased per head of population....but has it really decreased? or do they have double the amount of slaves? Are there in reality less slaves? Is the problem going away? Or do they now have Double the amount of slaves they had 10 years ago?
You and I both know that statistics can be manipulated to say just about whatever you want them to say...depending on what figures you want to use.
I do not see the world as a horrible place....I see this as a horrible issue....there is a diffence. I said this before....and will say it again...I am willing to concede that the world may not be getting worse....but....YOU cannot prove that world morals are improving. Maybe they are just the same...as you pointed out...there will always be good and bad people.
EntirelyPossible

It really depends on HOW you want to look at it doesn't it?
Absolutely not. In every measurable way imaginable and probably many we haven't, you are totally, completely and unequivocally incorrect in your assertions.
I prefer to look at it from the human point of view...the actual day to day human cost of slavery.
Then you should try it, rather than try to paint a bleak picture. A smaller percent of people are in some form of slavery than at any time before, slavery is illegal in every country in the world now, efforts are being made to stamp it out. Not perfect, but better and trending towards better.
yes....statistically slavery has decreased per head of population....but has it really decreased?
Yes, it has decreased as a percentage of the population. It's called math. You should try it sometime.
You and I both know that statistics can be manipulated to say just about whatever you want them to say...depending on what figures you want to use.
I know what I know. What you know, I can't say. What you don't know is math and how statistics work. You apparently do know enough to blame them when they show how utterly wrong you are. Don't blame the hammer when you accidentally hit yourself in the thumb with it.
I am willing to concede that the world may not be getting worse....but....YOU cannot prove that world morals are improving.
I don't care what you concede. The evidence speaks for itself. You are utterly wrong whether you concede or not.
still thinking

yes....statistically slavery has decreased per head of population....but has it really decreased?
Yes, it has decreased as a percentage of the population. It's called math. You should try it sometime
I'm pretty sure I actually agreed with you here....
But....is the problem being fixed by an evolving moral code? or is it simply a case of the problem not keeping the same pace as population growth?
If an evolving moral code was the reason...then surely the number of slaves today WOULDN'T be higher than at any other point in history.
A smaller percent of people are in some form of slavery than at any time before, slavery is illegal in every country in the world now, efforts are being made to stamp it out. Not perfect, but better and trending towards better.
Hmmmm....in some form of slavery?....I thought we were only talking trafficking now?....if we are talking any form of slavery the figures go through the roof. Yes, slavery is illegal in every country in the world...so how do you explain why the number of slaves is higher than in any point in history? Does not add up does it?
If it were trending better...that should be reflected in all scenarios, not just percentages of population. As we know, population growth has a huge impact on the percentages. If everyone woman of child bearing age had a baby next year....that would have a massive effect on the percentage of people in slavery...but it wouldn't in any way show that slavery was being addressed or reduced...in fact...it would be no reflecton whatsoever on what is happeing with slavery.
PSacramento

There are two types of slavery in the bible and through out history and we need to make sure that we don't confuse the two.
Endentured servitude and the type of slavery that we typically associate with the temr slavery, like the blacks in the southern states or slaves that were captured during military conquests.
Nowadays the "endentured servitude" still exists, sex slaves and other types of slaves that are sold to pay off debts are still around in many countries.
As for lavery in the most typical sense, yes, there is still some of that too.
Numbewise I never really looked into it, but I would think that they are very high, certianly higher than what they have been in history, just on sheer population numbers I would think.
EntirelyPossible

I'm pretty sure I actually agreed with you here....
You agreed and then questioned the agreement.
But....is the problem being fixed by an evolving moral code? or is it simply a case of the problem not keeping the same pace as population growth?
Evolving moral code.Not only is it not keeping pace, it has fallen dramatically, directly due to human rights changes and an evolving moral code.
If an evolving moral code was the reason...then surely the number of slaves today WOULDN'T be higher than at any other point in history.
Sorry, we don't allow logical fallacies. You just committed the logical fallacy of begging the question. Your question assumed the premise you wanted to prove was true and offered no supporting evidence. If you have any to offer, please do so.
Hmmmm....in some form of slavery?....I thought we were only talking trafficking now?
I made the option wider since you intially separated the child labor and human trafficking and later wanted to combine them. If you still wish to combine them, all you need to do is run the numbers and we can.
If it were trending better...that should be reflected in all scenarios, not just percentages of population.
Begging the question. Why would that be so? It is not enough to simply assert that it.
As we know, population growth has a huge impact on the percentages. If everyone woman of child bearing age had a baby next year....that would have a massive effect on the percentage of people in slavery...but it wouldn't in any way show that slavery was being addressed or reduced...in fact...it would be no reflecton whatsoever on what is happeing with slavery.
Not entirely correct. Population growth, to a point, has a impact, but once you are dealing with suffciently large numbers, percentages are all you can deal with. Every woman having a baby next year MAY have a huge impact, however, we also kmow that every woman won't have a baby.
That's why the critical numbers are whether or not it is falling, growing or keeping pace as an overall percentage. Also it is important to look at whether societies allow it, the law enforcement going on, etc. On every front, things are trending towards the better. That's why the statistical numbers are important to look at on all front and, consistently, they show one thing, an evolved moral code has improved things.
dgp

From what I see, on this thread "godless world" means exactly what it means elsewhere: "a world where no god is worshipped", but somehow the opposite of "a godless world" is taken to mean "a monotheistic world". And that only god, let us make no mistake, is the Christian god, YHWH. It's clearly not Allah. Nor Aten.

From the perspective of a convinced atheist, "a godless world" means something different from what it seems to mean here. It means "a world where everyone is sure there are no gods and all the bad things religion brings have ceased to exist". I think that is what the video posted by leavingwt is really about. Let us do things now, for their own sake, not because we expect to live forever or because we will receive a prize.

I am sure this website is a hell of a place (pun intended) for people to accept that religion does bring bad things with it. Religious persons usually claim that it's not their religion that fails, but somebody else's. Or then their own religion failed (past tense) but it doesn't know because the leaders rectified their mistakes (aka "noo lite").

From an atheist perspective, the idea that morals come from God is plain wrong, because nothing cannot emanate from nothing. The Christian values and morals that we share in the West (after two thousand years, that is the case for all of us whether we like it or not) are man made. The mere idea that God dictated morals to us (in the Good Book, or the Watchtower, anywhere) has no foundation in reality. No God ever spoke to Moses, or Muhammad, or Joseph Smith, or has any direct line with the Governing Body, simply because there is no God.

I searched the Wikipedia and found this about Confucianism:

The core of Confucianism is humanism,[2] the belief that human beings are teachable, improvable and perfectible through personal and communal endeavour especially including self-cultivation and self-creation. Confucianism focuses on the cultivation of virtue and maintenance of ethics, the most basic of which are ren, yi, and li.[3] Ren is an obligation of altruism and humaneness for other individuals within a community, yi is the upholding of righteousness and the moral disposition to do good, and li is a system of norms and propriety that determines how a person should properly act within a community.[3] Confucianism holds that one should give up one's life, if necessary, either passively or actively, for the sake of upholding the cardinal moral values of ren and yi.[4] Confucianism is humanistic[2] and non-theistic, and does not involve a belief in the supernatural or in a personal god.[5]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism)

So much, then, for needing a god, revealed wisdom, whatever, in order to have morals.

I'm sure a certain "Christian" organization I worked for recently would cry religious discrimination if their faithful were denied jobs on the basis of their religion. These very same people have a policy in place whereby they don't hire anyone who doesn't share their beliefs. This, I'm sure, they would not consider religious discrimination. I wonder what would happen if someone who worked for them suddenly claimed to be an atheist, and refused to participate in the morning and Friday afternoon prayers. This simple example is far from being the worst of religious crimes, by the way, and it is inspired (or so they would say) in the "Good Book". It is the atheistic morals that teaches that excluding people because of their religion is plain wrong.

For some reason, not many Christians consider it wrong for YHWH to wipe the Canaanites out just for the sake of the fickle Jews.

I also have a comment to make regarding the idea that Communism removed God. It didn't; it just replaced religion with a secular God, "the Party", or sometimes a personal leader, as in the case of the Dear Leader, Comrade Kim Il Sung. By the way, I wonder if it's only me who notices some similarities between the depictions of Kim Il Sung and those in the Watchtower.
Back in 1975, Venezuelan thinker Carlos Rangel pointed out that churches were empty in Uruguay, but they were full in Poland. The reason was that Communism could be many things but it was certainly useless in bringing consolation to people in grief. Words to the effect of "Comrade, your son fell for the greater good of the nation", cannot bring any relief, but saying something like "He will be joining us in Paradise" do give hope, even if it is false.

So the Catholic Church became the only non-Communist institution in countries such as Poland and Hungary, and the Church was very much alive there. But churches were empty in democratic Uruguay.

Rangel pointed out that the Catholic Church "updated" itself and liberation theologians came to exist probably because the Church realized that, half the world being Communist, some kind of accomodation had to exist between Communism and the Church. But, also, because both Communists and the Catholics were convinced that salesmen were their common enemy, and their most urgent task was to force them out of the temple. The Church knew how to count time in centuries, said Rangel. It was not certain whether the Communists would prevail.
Twitch

Crikey! Kim's pics are rather disconcerting, especially the kids in soldier/navy uniforms and the AKs in their hands. All the last one needs is a pitcher of koolaid on the table, perhaps a big, red button and a clock tower in the background that reads 11:58
shamus100

What's with the boy in the background with the gun?

The Value of a Godless World

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