The Value of a Godless World

by cantleave 109 Replies latest jw friends

  • PSacramento
    Precisely my point (actually José Saramago's, in "Cain"). YHWH knows that Satan isn't going to win, yet
    - he kills all of Job's children
    - he takes away all the riches (killing animals and servants in the process)
    - he gives Job a disease
    And all this is just to prove what he already knew! By the way, so much for doing God's will and enjoying his blessings. He might take them away in a stupid bet.
    I wonder if the movie "Trading Places", where Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy are the subjects of a similar bet, was inspired in the book of Job.
    I'm sure many a Bible scholar knows that the Book of Job isn't real. What's more, there are scholars who hold that much of it just wasn't so. Are we expected to base our morals in tales, then?

    Looking at it if it was a REAL and TRUE historical fact, I can see your point, but as a moral lesson I can also see the point of the writer of Job.

    Moral lessons VIA tales are very old and proven method of passing on lessons, ever culture and religion has them.

    BUT, let us assume it was a real event and that God was real and that ALL of the bible is correct, ok?

    What do we have then?

    A person that God gave evertyhing to, his life, his health, his riches ALL belonged to God and God gave them to him.

    Then God decided to take them back as a lesson to one of his angels and to all the others witnessing this "bet".

    He took aways all that he had GIVEN Job and even his children ( which since they went back to God is not a bad thing for THEM if heartbreaking for Job).

    Then, his point proven to Satan, the other angels and to Job himself, rewards Job with more than he ever had.

    A harsh lesson and unfair one? harsh yes but unfair by WHO's standards?

  • dgp

    Yes, not only every religion, but every culture passes lessons using tales.

    I am more interested in who determined what was moral and what was not. Was it man, or was it God? Before we go too far, I need proof that such a God exists. Otherwise I will think it was just a man who wanted to pass his own opinions as God's word.

    Wait! According to you, P Sacramento, this is what the author of the Book of Job did!

    I think this answers whose standards were taken in consideration.

    By the way, were those good standards? What about the murder of Job's children? How were they "rewarded"? They weren't even part of the bet! God's standards - I mean, the author's standards imply that it's fine to murder all of Job's children just for the sake of winning a bet whose outcome is known already. Great!

  • tec

    The point of Job, I believe, is that he did not turn his back on God, despite all of his suffering. He remained faithful. He didn't love God just because God got him things. His loyalty didn't depend on what he got out of the relationship. He loved God and remained loyal to God... period. In good times and in bad times, to coin a "vow".

    As we should also.



  • talesin


    You just made me think of a parallel story. It's kinda like a relationship, a marriage.

    You meet someone, and think this guy is so wonderful! Your whole life is transformed, he's so kind and loving, that you marry him. He gives you love and lots of support, brings home 'little gifts' regularly (a single chocolate truffle, a daisy that he picked on the the way home from work), and you have beautiful children that he cherishes and spends oodles of time with.

    One day, he decides to test you. He doles out just enough money so you can buy groceries and with a lot of creativity, manage not to starve. He starts beating you and raping you every night, and also ignores the children except when he decides to give them a 'reminder' with his belt that they should never do anything to shame him.

    But it's okay --- he just wants you to stay to prove your love for him. Period.

    In good times and in bad times.

    That is truly how I see "god", as an abusive, nasty father, who cares only about his own ego (well, the concept of god).


  • dgp

    Tec: Your view of the story is the one I was taught to see. I hope it is possible to look at it as a third party would. "This is a good man, the best servant YHWH has, and yet he does this and that and that just to test him". Pretty much what Talesin is saying.

  • tec

    Tal (and dgp), if all we had to go on about God was that account, I might see what you see also. So I understand your view, to a point. But I see God through His Son. God cannot be an abusive, nasty father who cares only about his own ego. Because Christ (who shows us the truth of His Father) is not that person. And it is not Christ who goes after or tests those who love Him and are loyal to Him. It is the enemies of Christ (man and spirit) and God, who test and go after those who are loyal to them.

    Same as with the account of Job. God didn't have to test Job, nor did He test Job. He already knew what was in Job, and had faith in him to be able to stand against an enemy that was going after him. But Job proved that enemy (Satan) wrong as concerns himself. Job defeated that enemy by remaining loyal to God, so that this enemy had no power over him.

    We also have that power.

    Why doesn't God just end all of his enemies instead of allowing them to continue? He will. I don't know when the time is right for that. I don't think He'll do it if it means that those who belong to Him will be hurt in the process. Perhaps once those who belong to Him can no longer stand against the enemy, then He will interfere. I mean... I can guess at all kinds of reasons, but the bottom line for me is that Christ shows us and trusts His Father. That is enough for me.



  • talesin


    Although I disagree with your point of view, I love the way you express it, and I 'get it'.


  • dgp

    Peace, too.

  • trailerfitter

    A godless world? My life. I neither believe there is a god or think that is nesseccary to have a god in society. My life is rich and with purpose without a god to worship. I am kind and moral. I am creative. I love and feel. I enjoy life.

    Religion poked its ugly head into our life in the form of the Jehovah Witnesses trying to destroy the peace I had created by growing up and understand my world and the people in it. Telling me that I must adhere to gods law or perish....Demanding that I must praise god in his glory..... why? Why should I fear it? NO I will not fear something that demands that of me. I am neither evil or in need of guidance. I do not want eternal life or believe in heaven. I beleive in a life where we learn our lessons and apply them. To better ourselves and challenge the weaknesses within ourselves.

    Why does someone need a god that demandsto be loved??? Why do they love that god?,.... only 1 reason. forfillment of a promise. Selfish though it may be,. it is still only a promise which there is no proof of to the exsistance of its claims except through a book that was written thousands of years ago, debated, debunked, and finally not agreed on by 1/3 of the worlds population who, tell themselves that "the others" are wrong and they cannot see the truth because it is only their group that has the light!!!!

    They would have themselves divided themselves so well it would be obvious to an outside onlooker that it can't be the "truth". I am sorry,.. it cannot be the truth.....Religion, is to delusionary to be that.

    Sorry Rant over.

  • NewChapter

    Tal, I loved your little "parable".

    For me, taking a god out of the picture made this life so much more valuable. In the past, when I heard about injustice, suffering and death around the world, I comforted myself with the knowledge that they would suffer no more because a god would make it all better. NOW I see things very differently. I am not content to wait around, nor do I pad myself from the grieving that is necessary to affect change. I do what I can with more heart than before. It's up to us---there will be no savior. We stop the horrors, or they don't stop. That's a lot of responsiblity, and it makes me so much more moral than I used to be.

    If there was a god, and he allowed suffering to prove--what--that he loves us?---that we need him?---that some will continue to worship him anyway?---I'm really not sure. But if it were so, then why the inequity? Why hit certain African or Asian nations so much harder? What does that prove? No--it simply makes no sense. We need to take care of each other, we need to care, and we need to stop externalizing responsiblity and blame. The devil DID NOT make you do it, and a god WILL NOT fix it.


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