Sleeping with the enemy

by Nickolas 86 Replies latest jw friends

  • Nickolas

    My guess is that your guess is not a guess but an observation.

  • still thinking
    still thinking


    Both you and dear ST are absolutely correct, that love is best road to take... when DEALING with JWs. Goodness, it's the best tack when dealing with ANYONE, IMHO. Including, again, one's enemies. However, I was coming from a place of "if you truly want to get your wife OUT." And I stand by my assertion that the TRUTH... about God, Christ, and what the Bible TRULY teaches... will do that... better and faster... than ANYTHING else... for someone who LOVES God (vs. loves the WTBTS).

    For me what you say here Aguest was the truth...for someone who believes in God and loves God they do want to know...and...they need to feel safe.

    For some reason what the watchtower teaches makes some feel safe. It gives them a false sense of security. They will be ok "if they follow the rules". They have to make themselves look and feel better because in reality they don't feel good enough....and if they aren't good enough...they may not survive armageddon. People with the lowest self esteem pull others apart to feel better about is a lie...and they are only lieing to themselves. Unfortunately everyone around them that they care about and love cops the fallout.

    Fear is a controlling destroys lives and families...fear allows them to justify treating loved ones so badly...fear and warped reasoning that they are doing the RIGHT thing for the person they love...the false belief that they are helping them 'just as God would' by dicipline and behaviour correction. Deep down...they know it is wrong...but the more they do what is wrong...the more the fear controls what they do.

    If we can still manage to love those that treat us badly out of their fear and see them for who they are rather than how they behave because of fear...maybe...just maybe they will realise that if we can still love them even though they treat us this way there is something to what we are saying. WE are displaying the love of God...WE are SHOWING them it is safe to search for God on our own and we have peace because of it.

    If we behave badly towards reinforces their belief...and provides them more excuses to continue behaving as they do. It is not our fault that they behave like that. And to a certain extent it is not theirs either...we cannot blame a victim for being a victim. Even though it would appear that they are to blame.

    If you have a small child and you want to teach it how to love and be teach the child by your show it love. You do not beat the child...this teaches the child to hit or to be fearful. You do not constantly shout at the child...this teaches the child to be domineering or to cower and be fearful.

    We all have that small child within us...and we all want to be loved and accepted...for some of us it takes a lot to break through that fear and face reality...the only way is to make the way safe to offering love.

  • AGuest
    I wondered in another thread I started how Jehovah's Witnesses for whom the light has come on live with themselves afterward. Bringing all those people into the Watchtower before they exited themselves. Those who do live with themselves have also forgiven themselves. Oddly, some of those who have forgiven themselves withhold love and forgiveness for people who are doing exactly the same things they did, until those people see the light themselves.

    Another one of those "uncanny" moments where we "think alike" you and I, dear Nick (as always, peace to you!). I have made that observation and asked that question here more times than I can count. To me, it's like African Americans... or women... having a problems homosexuals, "illegal" immigrants, or someone of another religion (seriously? After what YOU/your predecessorys have been subjected to? What has any of these ever done to YOU??). Makes absolutely no sense to ME, other than it's people being people... and hypocrites.

    If we can still manage to love those that treat us badly out of their fear and see them for who they are rather than how they behave because of fear...maybe...just maybe they will realise that if we can still love them even though they treat us this way there is something to what we are saying. WE are displaying the love of God...WE are SHOWING them it is safe to search for God on our own and we have peace because of it.

    Yes, but OUR display does not necessarily translate into something "good" to them, dear ST (again, peace to you, as well!). MANY here have tried to show love, indeed, have continued in unconditional love toward those who have utterly rejected them. Doesn't make a difference, though. The WTBTS brainwashing says that OUR love (but not theirs) has an ulterior motive: to lead them away from "God" (i.e., the Borg). Which is true, but not the ONLY reason for it, nor the primary reason. The primary reason is that we DO love them.

    You must keep in mind, then, that for them it really is like the Salem witch hunts of old: if the accused floats, the Devil is helping them; if they sink, God had damned them. Meaning, you can't win. It's the exact same premise as their contradictory "The whole world hates us and persecutes us because we're JWs... yet, the whole world loves us and wants us as neighbors/employees/spouses... because we're JWs."

    They can question love, dear one, just as we have done here... because of their suspicion of the motive (he/she doesn't really love me, but only wants to pull me away). But put the TRUTH in their faces and their faith in the BORG... starts to crumble. And I don't mean "my" or anyone else's beliefs or interpretations of what the Bible says... but what the Bible SAYS (versus what they SAY it says). When they see where the Borg says one thing... and the Bible says an entirely DIFFERENT thing... they can't defend that.

    I remember once, asking a "sister" at a table on campus at CSU Sacto just how it was that she was going to live forever without eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ. She got quite upset and said, "WE don't NEED to; we have life IN OURSELVES." Which is what the WTBTS teaches. So, I turned, in HER Bible, to John 6:53, which states:

    "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood... you have NO LIFE IN YOURSELVES."

    She was dumbfounded. Absolutely silent. Would NOT speak with me any longer. Did I dispute what her Bible said, you know, like some do with John 1:1 ("was God... was [a] God", etc.)? Nope. No need. It said what it said. No bracketed letters or words to dispute.

    Which is why anyone who wishes to show them such discrepancies MUST use the NWT... and particularly the large Reference edition. Because the FOOTNOTES of that version is absolutely revealing. They utterly expose the WTBTS as the fraudulent false prophet it is. No need to even speculate on it. It's right there in their own Bible. Which is why I believe it is the BEST Bible version out there: it EXPOSES their very false teachings. That what they teach... in the WT, Aid, and Insight Books, etc.... is so blatantly in opposition to what's in their OWN Bibles... so OBVIOUS... they simply CANNOT defend it... or the WTBTS.

    And the best place to start... is with what CHRIST says in the Bible says about partaking... and by whom. Because it is this division, this "mystery", that keeps them in the MOST fear. As I have posted many times, people will leave and go out a gamble, cheat on their spouses, steal, even murder. But they WON'T partake... I don't care WHAT you offer them. Uh-uh, nope. Because they are AFRAID... of eating "unworthily." It is that whole "little flock/other sheep" BULL that created this fear and keeps these poor folks in the greatest amount of fear... second only to "Armageddon." Which isn't ieven IN the Bible (the word OR the way the WTBTS explains it)... nor does it occur how and WHEN they have everyone believing it does.

    If you can show one where the WTBTS has misused, misinterpreted, and literally LIED as to what's in the Bible, however... their faith IN THE WTBTS... will at least BEGIN to erode. They will starting looking (if not come back and ask you as to more) for other like discrepancies. You can't use John 1:1, however... which is what most try to use... because they have an answer for that one. But they have NO answer for the other two issues... partaking and Armageddon... because there is no way they can change what is recorded in THEIR Bible. And other than those two issues, there really isn't anything else that JWs fear (besides shunning/loss of familial consortium - and, yes, there is an account that belies THAT, as far as Christ is concerned!).

    Again, I say this based on experience: I have helped a lot of folks, who would have NEVER bought the notion that there is no God, come out. And all I did was show them, from the NWT, these two issues. From those small starts, the "shingles" on their eyes "loosened" enough for them to just ask the question, "COULD they be wrong on this?" From there, they usually want to know what "else" the WTBTS is wrong about, even if just out of curiosity. Doesn't matter: curiosity usually kills the cat.

    Using Mr. Ray Franz's experience and books will work... but only for those who have a problem with the authority of the WTBTS, from elders to the GB. But not everyone has that problem and so, some are more than willing to believe that Mr. Franz had his own agenda and so his account is just the result of "sour grapes." WE know better, of course, but as long as the shingles remain on their eyes... they don't and won't.

    But show them what the Bible actually SAYS... and, again, by Bible I mean the NWT... versus what the WTBTS teaches? A totally different thing for those who still truly have a SPIRITUAL need, those who TRULY believe they are following God... and Christ.

    Again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,


  • TD

    Interesting thread.

    --Especially because my situation is similar in several respects to Nickolas. I don't have anything intelligent to add. --Just wanted everyone to know that I've appreciated your thoughts.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Nice post Aguest..and I agree.....I have only one thing to add....And that is...Jesus showed love through his actions, Gandhi showed love through his actions...there are many more throughout history that have done the same.

    1 cor 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud

    If we are displaying love in the spirit of the quote one can deny the truth of it.

    Love has much more power than people give it credit for...even if people deny the motive for love...they cannot, in their hearts deny the love. They can pretend to themselves that it is not real...for whatever reason they chose, and there is nothing we can do about that, but...if WE are genuine...whether they want to or not...they cannot fail to see it.

  • AGuest
    no one can deny the truth of it. ... they cannot, in their hearts deny the love. They can pretend to themselves that it is not real...for whatever reason they chose, and there is nothing we can do about that,

    I absolutely agree, dear ST (again, peace to you!)... and so marvel at those who do so [pretend] to deny it... because the WTBTS tells them to. That's what I mean by personal and individual accountability in all of this.

    Again, I agree with you... and peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,


  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Active JW looking deeply into the TRUTH

    Me...and a few others on here....."well hello whats really going on"?

    Some 'other' members of JWN...and me from time to time...LOL...."WHY WON'T YOU LISTEN TO ME"

  • Quendi

    I have been following this thread with interest although I have little to add to the discussion. However, I will make this observation after a deep conversation with a non-JW friend who has been married for more than twenty years to a fifth-generation and now fading Witness. We had all attended a gathering that our friend magwitch had hosted and were returning home. My friend said that he had been intrigued by the conversation during the party that touched on different people we former Witnesses had all known during our years in the organization. He had heard many of these names before, but was shocked by how common our bad experiences with them had been, these people all being elders. Then he said he couldn't understand why so many former Witnesses he knew were having trouble separating our feelings about the organization from our feelings about individual Witnesses as well as why so many Witnesses he knew had seeming lost all power of objective thinking.

    The answer I gave then is one that I believe has some validity. Two years ago I was on the edge of slipping into a diabetic coma. Fortunately, I got treatment in time and began the insulin regimen I am on today. But during the first two weeks of treatment, I noticed that every morning began with my mouth ejecting a fluid that I did not recognize. It was some time later that someone else told me that my body was undergoing a natural detoxification and what I had seen was some of the poison being released.

    For those of us who have left the organization and are now rediscovering life, there is a similar period of detoxification. For years, decades even, we had been ingesting the poison that was WTS teaching and philosophy. That poison affected us mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically in many cases. Now that we have removed ourselves from the WTS environment, we are undergoing detoxification. Hence, there can be much confusion as we sort out our feelings, set a new course for our lives and follow it.

    For me that means having absolutely nothing to do with the WTS in any shape, form, or fashion. I will never enter a Kingdom Hall again for as long as I live. How do I feel about individual Witnesses? A very few have maintained ties with me in the years since I was disfellowshipped, and I treasure their friendship. Most shun me like the plague, and the feeling is mutual as I have no wish to associate with them again if they don't want that. It doesn't matter to me what the reason is for their shunning. They are doing it and I have decided to let them reap what they sow. I will neither go out of my way to renew ties nor seek them out with few exceptions, like my friend Mark as I related recently.

    I see all of this as my detoxification, if you will. I am also beginning to realize that in my case, this detoxification will take years, not days or weeks, to complete. Perhaps at its end I will have a more tolerant view of individual Witnesses. But until then it would probably be best for both parties that we keep our respective distances.

    What would I do if Witnesses were to come to my door in their evangelizing work? I would greet them kindly and courteously, but I would also inform them that I am disfellowshipped and have no desire to return to the organization. If they want to come in and have a spiritual discussion, I am open to doing so as long as it can be done with mutual respect. If they try to persuade me to reconsider my stance with the WTS, that will put them beyond the pale. In that way I am being honest, not deceitful, and letting the choice of continuing the conversation rest with them. I suspect that once they know that I'm disfellowshipped, they will beat a hasty retreat, and then put my name on their congregation's "do not call" list.

    So that is my take on this question. Since I am single, I can't speak to the situation of those married to active Witnesses except to say that I think continued love and affection are the best ways to cope with what may be a stressful situation. In any case, I wish all of us who are now on the path to freedom continued happiness whether we're "sleeping with the enemy" or not.


  • Nickolas

    Another arrow in my quiver. Thank you, Shelby.

    Quendi, your lucid take on things is probably close to hitting the mark, if it doesn't actually hit it square on. I've been thinking about parallels, specifically post-war attitudes towards peoples who were enemies. I was born in 1952 and the second world war had been over for 7 years. By the time I was old enough to take notice and understand prejudice it was the early 60's and there were still hard feelings felt toward Germans who had emigrated after the war and, indeed, the country was still occupied by the armies of the victors. But my best friend who was just 4 days younger than I was of German decent and there was no memory for us of what had transpired between our parents. His father had been in the SS in Hungary and Poland and my father in the Royal Canadian Navy chasing and destroying U-boats in the North Atlantic. His father and mine were civil toward one another but probably said no more than a dozen words in conversation. Intense memories are for a lifetime. It really took a generation for the bile to clear out of the mouths of people who had suffered because of what the German people took part in during the 30's and 40's. But it was only the German people, the "rank and file" if you will, who were forgiven and with whom relations were normalised. The Nazi leadership of the German people, and to some extent the rank and file who did their heinous bidding, were never forgiven but vilified and to the extent allowed by evidence and law eradicated. Perhaps something of the same dynamic happens between former and active Jehovah's Witnesses.



    Thanks for the kind words..


    Outlaw, do you agree that you have had to persevere here?

    "Had to persevere"..?..Hmmmmmm..

    I didn`t "have to"..


    It takes time to figure out the WBT$ Game..

    All the little set-ups for inevitable failure..So the average JW will go crawling back..

    I`ve had to endure constant sabatoge from my own JW family..

    All WBT$ promoted..

    I had to figure out how to live in the real world..

    A WBT$ education doesn`t prepare you for anything except blind obedience to the WBT$..

    The WBT$ ripped my life and family apart..I`ve made a new life..But..

    I`ll never get my family back..

    At my age..I should be busy with my family..

    It turns out I have plenty of spare time to deal with the people who took that from me..

    I`m not done with the WBT$ just yet..

    ........................ ...OUTLAW

Share this