Maybe this topic belonged more appropriately in "Adult and Heated Debate"? Allow me to establish something, please. I don't identify any one individual in here with my observation about dogmatism. If anything, I recognise the deficiency in myself. I think each of us has different agendas and each of us is spending time in JWN because it benefits us in different ways. Lots and lots of people are in here to heal. Some are in here to help. I am in here to learn. And what I have learned from you folks over the past 11 months has been beneficial. More than beneficial. I also think that the people in here have different objectives. Mine is to free my wife from the Watchtower, which will contribute to its downfall. I would like to live long enough to see the Watchtower come down, realising that I have a greater chance of winning the lottery (and I don't buy tickets). For others the objective is the same as the reason, and that is to heal. But please don't misunderstand me when I say to those people that it is because you have suffered you are so effective at teaching me what I want to know. I have known some Jehovah's Witnesses who are best described as rabid. It could be that the Watchtower attracts a certain pychosis and there are proportionally more wack-jobs in its ranks than in the general population, but broad brushing the entire group seems a bit much, at least from my current perspective. If I'm off base, please, please enlighten me. And relax a little.
Sleeping with the enemy
I will relax, thanks. Your wife is a very lucky woman. you are on these boards trying to get into the mindset of a jws so you can help your wife out when she is ready.
I was not angry Nick, I was trying to point out that the inter workings of the wts/jws is more complicated than you can imagine. This is why so many of us lose our spouses/children when we leave the org. The wts/jws have a hold on them beyond what they should. They should not come between a husband and wife or parents and children-but they do. Jehovah is that three-fold cord in our marriages .
Yes I do think the wts attracts a certain type of person. The born ins tend to come in all types but the walk ins tend to be either depressed and needing a community or they are idealistic type people. I have known both. I have known some wonderful jws, elders who were compassionate and kind . They either end up stepping down or leaving or they turn into corporate elders.
What happens to perfectly nice people that they would be waiting for the death of 99.9% of the world population and look forward to it with joy? To me that is when it is impossible for me to tell the wts from jws.
Perhaps, Violia, it comes down to understanding why otherwise good people get sucked into the Watchtower and then working that understanding to preventing or even reversing it.
If I'm off base, please, please enlighten me.
Well, since you invited, dear Nick (the greatest of love and peace to you!) - LOLOLOL! While I do see where you're trying to come from some of these who responded are really more accurate: you are treated differently because you're not a baptized JW and have a fairly decent (by their standards) life. They usually don't mess with "unbelieving mates" who have lives... and minds... of their own, the latter of which they are not afraid to use. They are just trying to win you over, dear one, so don't let the "smooth taste" fool you: if you EVER had a change of mind/heart... and joined up... and then said, "Hey, wait, no, this really isn't the truth," you would see some "true" colors come out.
I am like your dear wife, to a great extent, as far as how I treat and help people. I was the same when I was in... and they "loved" me. I, too, attracted like people. But since leaving? Heck, I now have people whose heads I LITERALLY held while they vomited up bile after receiving chemo... now looking at me as if that bile was all over me! People who were hungry... and I took from my cabinets so that they and their children could eat... won't even look at me. And the congregations did NOTHING to help these during their crises.
True, like you, I don't get all the ire against the R&F. To me, treating them spitefully, hatefully, or with contempt, is acting EXACTLY as they do as to THEIR enemies: hating and wishing evil upon them. How can one do that and consider themselves DIFFERENT, if not BETTER? That totally does NOT make sense to me... and so YOUR position of showing them LOVE makes the better sense to me.
But while I do try to continue loving them... and showing them love... I make no mistake as to what they DO do... and their individual responsibility and accountability for it. C'mon... those who think ANY of them are "victims" (other than the children)... other than perhaps early on and in the beginning... are ENABLERS. Because after some time, it is upon ONESELF to KNOW that treating ANYONE the way they do is WRONG. You CANNOT read what Christ taught... and TRUTHFULLY reconcile it with what the WTBTS teaches. You CANNOT. True, it may take you a bit of time to realize that... but at SOME point, you MUST realize it.
But what do you DO about that? If not leave, then all you can do is either blame those who question you, try to convince them (and yourself) that they "just don't get it"... or make up stuff in your own mind, heart... and head... to justify it. If you HAVE questions, though... there is a REASON... and if you choose to ignore those questions (which is what they ALL do - ignore their own questions)... that is on you. You... and no one else. Alcoholism is said to be a disease. In that light, an alcoholic cannot "help" himself/herself. Right? They can drink all they want and do whatever they want to whomever... because it's all the alcohol's fault - they have no personal responsibility, ever. Right?
At some point, we must all be accountable for our actions/inactions... particularly those that harm others. We cannot say, "The Devil made me do it." We should also not be able to say, therefore, "The elders/CO/GB/Society/FDS/WTBTS made me do it." That's a complete copout. We also cannot say, "Yeah, well, I'm part of a harmful regime of imposters that prohibit people from taking life saving courses (such as blood transfusions), or prompts others to commit suicide because they've lost everything because they no longer believe as we do... but's that OKAY... because I'm doing "good" in other ways."
I am SURE your wife is a good, kind, lovely lady. Good, kind, lovely... but hugely misled. And such misleading has caused her to become a part of and adhere to an organization that is ROTTEN... to the CORE. Because of the kind of person she is, your love and kindness may be the thing that wakes her up and so, by all means, go to it!
This place, though, is kind of "sacred", is it not.... in that it's one place folks CAN come to vent, get it all off their chests, yell, scream, shout... and say all of the things they NEED to say about JWs and the WTBTS? Things they may not be able to say elsewhere. Not everyone has that need, true... but those of us who don't don't really have the grounds... or the right... to take issue with those that do. The purpose and nature of the board CALLS for it.
So, again, while I see totally where you're trying to come from... and I absolutely commend you for arriving there... I think you have to realize that while that's okay for YOU... it may not be for many, indeed most... who come here. Most need to kick and scream about their feelings and experiences. Carefully choosing which threads (and their respective posters) you open/read/respond to can do much to alleviate your exposure, though, to those that do so need.
I hope this explains... and helps... and, as always, the greatest of love and peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
I always value and appreciate the posts you direct to me, Shelby. Allow me to read this particular one once or twice again in the morning before I comment on it further. At least beyond a question to clarify things. If I can't trust my Jehovah's Witness wife of 38 years to have my best interests at heart, as I do hers, then why shouldn't I just end it all here? I have to be convinced that the person I am living with is genuine, and vice versa. If not, everything changes, for both of us.
Back atcha tomorrow.
Interesting thread....coming back to read more later...thanks
If I can't trust my Jehovah's Witness wife of 38 years to have my best interests at heart, as I do hers, then why shouldn't I just end it all here?
Ooh, hope I didn't imply that, dear Nick (again, peace to you!), because I didn't mean that, at all! That your wife is a part of something that has great culpability in no way implies that she's any kind of a threat to YOU; indeed, I think she's shown you otherwise. But her goal is similar to theirs... and Bible-based:
"That they may be won without word."
If I were her and I was "in" and my husband a non-believer, I would treat him exactly as she does you: with love. All of the love I could muster. But that's HIM... and so HE would have no complaints. She is obviously doing her best... and you SHOULD love her for it and be grateful. BUT... she is the exception to the rule... which I gather is the case even outside the WTBTS: as to your long marriage AND her loving conduct to toward others.
So, no, you shouldn't just end it all here - of course, not (but that you even ask that, is curious because NOTHING anyone else says should cause you to even "go there"). We'll "talk" once you've read my post, K? K!
Again, peace to you, dear one!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA, whose only saying is that "ignorance" is not a great excuse for being part of something the causes serious harm to others, even if the ignorant one tries their best to do good in other ways...
but broad brushing the entire group seems a bit much, at least from my current perspective.
If I'm off base, please, please enlighten me. And relax a little.....Nickolas
I`ve thought about this thread for a few Hours''..
As much as I would Like to Like,the Nice JW`s..
I have to Face the Fact..
If I seriously Challenged the WBT$..
Everyone of them would Do Me In..If given the Opportunity..
It`s a Simple Fact in Watchtower World..
You Lucked Out..
If what you Say is True..Your Mrs. Loves you More than the WBT$..
Very Few of Us have Experienced that..
Not weighing into the forgoing debate, but for me...
(I couldn't sleep with the 'ememy'...For a while she was happy to knock boots with me after i left the WT and her, but post lust i was just a scumbag guttler trawling lowlife to her. I was judged unmercifully and any thoughts of reconciliation were definatley intrinsically linked to my return to the fold).
We all have different and evolving feelings toward the WT and JWs. Depending on who they are and how they act, my feelings run the full range from pity to contempt.
At the top, the GB ceased long ago to be mere followers of followers. Once they woke up as i am sure they all did withing a few months of of GBing they had/have the opportunity to activate change or get out. There is no way they cannot know it is a fraud, unlike the rank and file who's greater percentage is probably ignorant of it.
As for time here... i also spend time on a wordwork forum, a corvette forum, a hotrod forum, a T shirt forum, a renovation forum... strictly for information, whereas i must admit, JWN hits closer to my heart.
I tend to adopt a feeling of withstanding (sometimes more sometimes less) rather than outright dogmatism and hatred towards Jehovahs witnesses. As for the Governing body - their reckless corruption takes my breath away and I counter this by being in a state of escape. When the going gets tough I remind myself that this is what escaping is all about. My family are escaping too because of their association with me rather than because they are consciously doing so. Hopefully they take on board some of the seeds of doubt I cast their way. Most go to the birds or fall on rock I daresay but still you never know...