by Nickolas 86 Replies latest jw friends
LOL Aguest....I agree and disagree. It's a bit like the chicken and the egg.
Truth is the ultimate goal but sometimes it takes love to help you see it...even if you are searching.
But I cannot disagree with you. For me, both are correct depending on where you are at in your journey.
The TRUTH got us in there...but I believe love helps us get out (and truth)
NICKOLAS- You seem to have a really good grasp on how the control and power emanates and flows downward through the levels of the WT society. I too have usually beaten the drum that the guilty party are the leaders of the WT society in how much they try to control and micromanage rank & file JW's lives.
I feel most rank and file Jehovah's Witnesses are victims of insidious mind control tactics and they don't REALIZE they are being controlled. Like the " frog in the slowly boiling pot " syndrome. So when rank & file JW's come to my door I try to reason with them in a polite manner and drop off ideas to them to get them to think. I had one elder on sitting on my living room couch for 30 minutes about 4 months ago. I had never met him, didn't know him- but I opened up in a more direct manner about my differences with the WT society and firmly explained why I stopped attending meetings 8 years ago. I think he felt nervous about what I explained to him as he was being exposed to some things HE was totally unaware of. But - he got an education. He can't undo what I planted in his brain. I agree though we attract more flies with honey
Nick, your position is almost exactly like the one of my father in law. He's an atheist married to a devout dub too and I find your similarities in view to him both facinating and profound. I have argued with him about this same subject and he will defend the more tolerant Watchtower members. I can't help but commend you both for your exceptional empathy.
Although I disagree with you both, but sympathize with your positions. In fact I kind of envy your positions. Like you said the R&F are what gives the GB power not the other way around. Mind control, or youth indoctrination, has been used since history started being recorded. That's where the evil lies, not in the field ministry or kingdom hall, where the Rank and File pitch their way of life on their best behaviour, but in the household of a fully indoctrinated JW family. Your ignorance on that matter makes you nicer than Ex Jehovah's Witnesses and it gives you more tolerance. That's a good thing.
For every human tolerance will run thin and eventually completely fall through at some point. That point differs between people of course. You have been able to retain a connection, and even love, with your wife and has my FIL. Your relationship is a bright light among darkness and turmoil. Watchtower relationships are more often than not horrifying. You are wearing rose colored glasses, I hate to say.
You also speak about the intellectually stimulating conversations you have had with Witnesses. You say they respect you, but you are mistaken. They pity you, as a hopeless and bigoted atheist. They verbalize this prejudice as "differing views." They maybe even like you as a person, but they don't respect you as a person of free will and it's foolish to think otherwise, imo.
The Watchtower cannot be separated from the R&F because the R&F are not strong enough on their own. They are a weak and downtrodden bunch because of the their leaders. They drag themselves along their lives seeking a fantasy ending, but can only solve their problems, that they don't believe they have, by overthrowing their oppressors. Ninety nine percent of all evolved life is extinct. Most species don't make it no matter how hard they try and the members of the Watchtower society don't look like they'll turn an encouraging corner anytime soon. Being corgile with the Witnesses is just another stalemate in a long line of ineffective strategies.
-Sab
So many fine comments generously and sincerely given.
I recognise, Shelby, that my atheism puts me at a disadvantage because it is something that my wife will never embrace. And I have already taken ownership at least in part for her maintaining her association with the WTBTS. I believe I used Aesop's fable about the wind and the sun, likening myself to having adopted the wind's strategy over the years and achieving similar results. It is true. I can't offer her anything in exchange for her leaving the Watchtower including, as ST has pointed out, looking into other religious organisations - (I tried that, in fact ST, and it had exactly the reaction you indicated in your wonderful post above. It took me years and years to finally understand that women don't want their problems "fixed" so much as understood, just understood. Sometimes we men can be as dense as bricks.) I also recognise and accept my penchant for coming to wrong conclusions, although I hope I am mature enough to admit it when I do.
My perspective on relationships with religious people (or people of faith, if you prefer) is that I am completely cool with them. I can admire their mosques and cathedrals and even be an inactive participant in their ceremonies, asking only that they can accept the polite reciprocity of leaving me alone with that cherished organ I keep between my ears. That's all I ask, really. A problem arises only when they can't help themselves but to attempt to meddle with my life or my mental furniture. I like my mental furniture just fine the way they are, thank you. And it all works because the Watchtower has no power over me, and that is because I have given it none. The hypothetical offered I think twice in this thread that if I was to become baptised then decide to leave, well then, then I would understand what people are talking about. But that hasn't happened and it's not going to happen. Ever. So it is irrelevant. If the Jehovah's Witnesses in my circle of concern treat me with kindness and respect principally because they want to make a good impression on me in hopes that I might soften to their perspectives on the world, then so what? I'm doing the same to them, after all, and in the process we sail through life getting along. That does not mean that I respect what they do and represent, and vice versa, but it does mean I return considerations given. If they were to treat me as some of those on this board have been treated, they would no longer be part of my life. But that has not been the case.
I agree wholeheartedly with still thinking when she identifies the most effective weapon against the Watchtower, if only because I know that confrontation doesn't work at all. I understand that that weapon is not at the disposal of someone shunned. That is perhaps why the Watchtower is so quick to turn its back on those who have perceived the truth about The Truth, to deny them the weapon of love.
I'm curious sabastious...do you think there is nothing that can be done to help relationships with people still heavily involved and believing in the WTS?
Of course they pity people and think they are hopeless...but what does that have to do with how we treat them? Do two wrongs make a right? Does treating them disrespectfully help them or achieve anything? Does it help anyone gain their family back. Or do you think it is impossible anyway so why try?
Hey there, sab, seems you and I were composing at the same time.
You are wearing rose colored glasses, I hate to say.
Perhaps I am. But perhaps the glasses you're wearing are distorting things a bit for you.
You also speak about the intellectually stimulating conversations you have had with Witnesses. You say they respect you, but you are mistaken. They pity you, as a hopeless and bigoted atheist. They verbalize this prejudice as "differing views." They maybe even like you as a person, but they don't respect you as a person of free will and it's foolish to think otherwise, imo.
How, I wonder, is that different from my perspectives of them? I see them as hopeless and bigoted, too, and I am not so diplomatic as to say their views are just different. I have used the word "delusional", actually, but only in the kindest tones. As to respect, it is either there or it isn't. And when it isn't, it is manifest because respect goes hand in hand with sincerity, and it is incredibly difficult to fake sincerity.
I liked your post, though.
Still thinking and I are on the same page, I think - or at least sharing entire paragraphs in common. And I thrilled over flipper's post about the conversation he had with the elder. That is precisely what I seek to accomplish. Planting a seed that might somehow sprout.
Off to the cellar to find a nice red to share with my lady and her mom.
Later.
Of course they pity people and think they are hopeless...but what does that have to do with how we treat them?
There is no reason to throw cabbage at Witness strangers. That said, if one finds themselves in a position where some sort of relationship is required, like Nick, there is no reason not to give them what for when they deserve it, imo.
-Sab
How, I wonder, is that different from my perspectives of them?
Your position is much more than an opinion. Your conclusions about them are based on the scientific method and peer review. That cannot be said about their views of you.
-Sab
I am not so diplomatic as to say their views are just different.
My father in law has been married to my wife's mother for over 40 years. He has told me that Witness after Witness has "taken their shot at him." This is most likely the general experience for you with very few exceptions. Witnesses don't start out with the "differing views" line that's a last resort to retain relationship while they regroup their thoughts and try again. Eventually they give up like they have with my FIL. It's almost like you have to break them like wild horses first. You guys are in a unique position to have a slew of JW friends
As Napoleon Dynamite would say, "LUCKY!"
-Sab
