by XJW4EVR 127 Replies latest watchtower bible
I think that the texts we have convey the original message.
To what degree is for the individual to decide.
I guess we're back to my first comment, which is OK by me. We'd be living a lie if we individually went against what actually makes sense to us.
If the evidence persuades you, then you SHOULD believe it.
As you know, that is an irrelevant argument in terms of comparison.
How about this: Why shouldn't you believe that Muhammad is a prophet and messenger of God? If you reject Muhammad as such, why? What process did you use to refute such a claim? At least a billion people accept this.
Mu?ammad (Arabic: ???? [n 1] Mu?ammad, pronounced [m?'hæmmæd] (
listen) ), (or sometimes Muhammad ibn Abdullah and also transliterated as Muhammed, Mohammad or Mohammed) [n 2] [n 3] (ca. 26 April 570 – 8 June 632) [1] (Monday, 12th Rabi' al-Awwal, Year 11 A.H.), was the founder [n 4] of the religion of Islam, [2] and is considered by Muslims to be a messenger and prophet of God, the last law-bearer in a series of Islamic prophets, and, by most Muslims, [n 5] the last prophet of God as taught by the Quran. [3] Muslims thus consider him the restorer of an uncorrupted original monotheisticfaith (islam) of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and other prophets. [4] [5] [6] He was also active as a social reformer, diplomat, merchant, philosopher, orator, legislator, military leader, humanitarian, philanthropist, and, according to Muslim belief, an agent of divine action. [7]
You shouldn't believe in the resurrection because it is just another Greek influenced myth just like the virgin birth of jesus and the divinity of jesus. Figure it out Christians claim to use the Old Testament basis for their belief, but there is no support for the belief in a virgin birth (supposed to be a maiden) or evidence of the deity of Jesus in the OT. Look to the Jews for answers about the OT they read Hebrew better.
2nd Point...that is really impressive that Jesus foretold the fall of Jerusalem in 70CE when the first manuscripts were from 300 AD. I wrote a book in 1999 about 2 planes flying into the world trade center on 9/11/01. Unfortunately the first manuscript they found was from 2011.
XJW-
The same demand for evidence should apply to you or any Believer, if Jesus is alive right now an appearance should be the minimum requirement. Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection of its leader.
Designs:
How many appearances would you deem sufficient?
If he did appear, and there is evidence & testimony to not only one, but numerous appearances and to numerous people who were in varied emotional states, and, the most important part, did not have the religious inclinatation to believe in the resurrection of, let alone the death of, the Messiah, why should they're testimony be dismissed?
Something happened to these people. There were numerous persons that claimed to be Messiah back in 1st century Palestine. All of them were crucified or otherwise executed. None of their followers ever made the claims that the followers of Jesus made. SOmething happened to them that radically transformed them. THe best explanation, to me, is resurrection. Show me where I am wrong and I'll change my mind.
Deist says:
You shouldn't believe in the resurrection because it is just another Greek influenced myth just like the virgin birth of jesus and the divinity of jesus.
Really? How did you come to that conclusion?
Figure it out Christians claim to use the Old Testament basis for their belief, but there is no support for the belief in a virgin birth (supposed to be a maiden) or evidence of the deity of Jesus in the OT.
Again, how did you come to this conclusion?
that is really impressive that Jesus foretold the fall of Jerusalem in 70CE when the first manuscripts were from 300 AD.
True, full manuscripts are dated at 300 AD. The earliest fragments match those later manuscripts. If the manuscripts are forgeries or embellishments, they are really hidden well.
leavingwt said:
I think I understand you, but I still want to be perfectly clear: Do you or do you not believe that the texts we have now are identical to the original texts?
Ehrman's own mentor, Bruce Metzger, stated that the NT was 99.5% textually pure to the original autographs. The reason why this statement can be made is because of the amount of manuscripts, fragments and lectionaries that are extant, over 24,000 of them.
There is a fragment that can be dated to within 29 years of the events they record, and others that can be dated between 130 & 150 years from the events.
Personally, I have very little doubt in the New Testament, but I have plenty of doubts about Bart Ehrman.
Other than some very bad videos presented by Stephen here claiming people went to both Heaven and Hell and came back to share their testimony where is this 5'6" Jesus. The claim is he is a god in a man's body now so it shouldn't be to hard to just appear. But the reality is christianity needs mysticism just like every other religion needs their mytics to perform for the gullible.
Jesus is welcome to appear whenever its convenient, I'm certainly not preventing him from the ultimate claim he's alive.
Why shouldn't I believe in the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth? I'm specifically asking about the resurrection.
Do we accept as fact something we are told?
Often, we do IF we respect the people who tell us.
This is true of Buddhists, Wiccans, Jews, Muslims, Communists and even Christians.
Inside your family there are beliefs accepted by respectable parents, grandparents and sibling. Some of those beliefs are, of course, errors.
Once you reach an age of autonomy and accountability your personal character reveals an astounding fact:
you are either an intellectually honest thinker or you are not.
Intellectual honesty compels us to follow facts and dismiss errors even when they CLASH with dearly held beliefs.
ARE YOU WILLING TO BE WRONG?
How do you get there?
How often will you follow facts to conclude you hold ERROR in high esteem?
For a Muslim child there is only Allah and Muhammed. How could there be any other?
For a Communist there is only radical Socialism with fascist authority. How could there be any other?
It takes a deep-seated respect for FACTS to create curiousity and skepticism worthy of honest investigation of our DEEPLY HELD BELIEFS.
We have to step OUTSIDE of our beliefs, family, leaders and system to take an honest first step.
The air is always different on the OTHER side of a conviction.
IT HURTS to be wrong and it is disastrous to be dead wrong!
At a certain point in my life I had to face the indisputable FACT that I had spent 20 years worshipping a tribal God and serving crackpot nonsense as though it were THE TRUTH.
How could I trust THE SAME BRAIN to allow me to make a NEW selection when my previous convictions were in such error?
I had to REBUILD my brain from scratch!
I needed a new toolbox.
I studied semantics, rhetoric, logic, history, fallacies and the great minds of the past to REBOOT my thinking mechanism.
That took another 20 years.
Then, I rooted out all my basic concepts and REdefined my core definitions.
With a new toolbox I investigated anew.
I would suggest you think about your own toolbox and how you came to possess it.
The Resurrection as it was portrayed in the Bible, complete with earthquakes, the Temple curtain being rent in two, corpses walking around in Jerusalem, and darkness in the middle of the day for three hours.... would have turned the world on its ear....and yet not a single secular historian noticed it..... or the miracles, or the sermons before massive crowds, or anything associated with the alleged public escapades of Jesus of Nazareth.
The resurrection on the third day comes from older myths that DO have great spiritual significance and value, but its nullified by the belief that somebody did all of our dirty work for us.
Now if you're talking PRIVATE escapades and teachings to a select group of disciples as it was originally told in the gospels that were rejected from being included in the canon, that would make all the sense in the world.
Jesus lived, but his message was changed.... by the Roman Catholic Church. What a shock.
