A brother at my wife's congregation wants to study the Bible Teach book...

by garyneal 79 Replies latest jw friends

  • garyneal

    wannabefree: I appreciate the warning, and it is indeed a good warning. My wife and I have been married now for nearly 8 years and she and I were studying with them for about 6 years together and later I stopped studying but she continued. She was a born in who needed a little extra indoctrination to convince her, but I had seen enough.

    Truth is, I did see a lot of those things that those other unbelieving spouses and others who later converted saw. Friendliness that crossed racial boundaries, 'unity' in their beliefs and their practices, and their seemingly adherence to the Bible. I was so convinced that I was actually considering (really considering) becoming a witness myself, even to the point to where I was envisioning myself in the life of one.

    But, I believed the Bible and I had to ensure that I was following it correctly. Therefore, I had to know, if the witnesses are so correct, how come so many other Christian denominations disagree, calling them a non-Christian cult, etc.. I felt my relationship with God along with my everlasting life was at stake. So I began researching, expecting it to take a year to two years to discover if they were correct or not.

    To my surprise, it took only two to three months to learn how full of crap their teachings were. Many of them did not line up with the Bible at all when I took a look at scripture in context (without the WT goggles). Others just made no sense at all logically (like the blood doctrine) and still others were downright wrong (607 B.C.E.). I was surprised at the wealth of information that they weren't telling me.

  • cantleave

    I want to be a Fly on the wall.

    How long before you get him questioning his own faith paradigm?

  • garyneal
    How long before you get him questioning his own faith paradigm?

    I don't know and I don't know the best approach. Other than just being friendly and making allowances for the unknown. I will be questioning, trying Black Sheep's approach, and riding it out until he quits the Bible study.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Gary, I think it would be funny if when he shows up, YOU start conducting the study, teaching HIM, and play it for as long as he'll let you. If he tries to turn the tables and take control you can say, "But brother Dimbulb, you said you wanted to have a Bible study with me. You don't want to quit your Bible study already, do you?" and then just keep on conducting.

  • ABibleStudent

    garyneal - I don't know and I don't know the best approach. Other than just being friendly and making allowances for the unknown. I will be questioning, trying Black Sheep's approach, and riding it out until he quits the Bible study.

    Hi garyneal, I agree with Black Sheep's approach. It is better that the Brother believes that you are trying to understand his beliefs by asking questions instead of trying to debate beliefs. I disagreed too much with a Brother, who was trying to convert me, and he stopped the Bible Study. Looking back it would have been better to cultivate some kind of bond where we could have agreed before asking questions that would have made him think.

    It would be great if your wife wanted to participate, so that you could plant seeds in both minds.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,


  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    My wife believes that I will never have the right heart condition to become a Jehovah's Witness (hence why she won't try to prove the selection in 1919 for me) so it will probably bear little fruit.

    That is where the extra leverage I am talking about comes in handy.

    You need to crucify the study conductor on your chosen subject in her presence. Then it becomes an issue of why he used (insert techniques) and why he hasn't come back and apologised/explained/whatever so that she doesn't have the embarrassment of knowing that he has no answer/balls/concience/whatever.

    Remember ............ while you are setting him up ......... bite your tongue, nod, etc.. Save the barf bag for when he leaves.

  • DesirousOfChange

    Hmmmmm... Where shall I start?

    The BIG ISSUE currently is the End Times/Last Days/Generation doctrine.

    It last changed significantly in 1995 -- "the "generation" that would not pass away before Armageddon had been identified as anyone born no later than the year 1914, but was changed to be the worldly people of that witnessed the sign of Christ's Presence (which began in 1914). This was at a time when there were less than 5 million publishers in 1995. Allowing for an annual death rate of 1%, that means that since that change there are 3 million new JWs of the 7.5Million active publishers . That means that 40% were not even JWs when that significant change took place. Even less remember it and can tell you what the change was. Many even overlooked this change as it had to do with the definition of greek terms etc etc. and that was too much for them to try to comprehend

    The previous significant event in this doctrine was 1975 (there were only 2 million JWs then) when The End did not occur (then or within a short time of that date) as had been fortold from the early 1950s but especially from the late 1960s. 1975 is a date the WTS would like to forget.

    2008 - present brought another significant change in the definition of "this generation" [that will not pass away before the end comes]. Now it is identified as "overlapping generations". This is a serious development for "thinking" JWs. Only the JW GB sees my great-grandfather, my grandfather, my dad, ME, and my children as "one" generation. {Sorry, getting distracted here.]

    As a result of this (and other) failed predictions, JWs have been labeled as FALSE PROPHETS. Even their "Reasoning from the Scriptures" book has a section on this subject. I would suggest that a friend at work has warned you about JWs being False Prophets and ask him to clear up that subject. The Reasoning Book even quotes Deut 18:20 -- “However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die." Tho not quoted there, it goes on (vs 21,22) "And in case you should say in your heart: “ 21 How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. 22 With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him."

    You must delveope the theme that the WT has published "prophecy" that has proven to be false. DO NOT EVER agree that you look at this or other such "apostate" websites. They will walk away from you as "damaged goods". You need to provide such false prophecies that "a friend at work" [or wherever] has given you when warning you about JWs. [How the hell do you know where they got the info? -- That's not the point! Is it TRUE? Let the JW defend it.]

    The information is all over this site about the 1968 Awake and 1969 Awake with references that no one would get old in this system (1968) before Armageddon and "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" (in reference to the generation of 1914). And there are other examples.

    THEY WILL SAY THESE ARE NOT PROPHECIES -- and that the WTS has never claimed to be a "Prophet". THEN: What then IS their claim?????? They claim to be DIRECTED BY GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT. That's right..........God's Spirit Directed Organization..........HIS Channel on Earth today......HIS ONLY CHANNEL on Earth today.

    Is it possible that God's Holy Spirit would direct His Organization to publish such FALSEHOODs (LIES?)? EVERY ADULT from 1968 either is OLD or DEAD. That's right, they are drawing Social Security -- Old Age Benefits. The BIG "A" did not come.

    The "Millions" of 1914 who would NEVER die? THEY DIED! Currently there are less than 100,000 Americans over the age of 100 years. There clearly ARE NOT MILLIONs who have survived. Another FALSEHOOD publsihed by God's Spirit Directed Organization.

    Or, is it possible that he was not "directing" the Organization at the time those FALSEHOODs were publshed (1968/1969)?? Then how do we know that what is being published NOW is not false?

    They claim that everyone from Pioneers/Ministerial Servants/Elders and on up to the GB are all appointed by and serve under the direction of God's Holy Spirit. Perhaps your wife knows of a local elder who was serving for years but then removed for Hidden Sins (adultery, homosexuality, embezzelmen, etc). Or, you can have the "friend at work" provide you with the following information of "hidden sins":

    http://www.silentlambs.org/bethelitechildmolester.htm "Bethel member arrested for nude photos and other crimes against children" (Remember, that is an apostate website, and you know nothing about it. It came from the "friend at work")

    Did God's "all knowing" Holy Spirit NOT know that this man that it had appointed to a very high position in JW Organization was a perverted sinner? Or did God's Holy Spirit tolerate/justify this man abusing innocent children, even while he was in a Spirit Appointed position, in an effort to give him time to readjust his wrongs? How many innocent children did God's Spirit allow to be harmed until this man might repent (he never did repent) before he was "outted"?

    Ask him: WHAT THEN is the evidence of their being GOD'S SPIRIT DIRECTED ORGANIZATION in light of those examples? YOU need the evidence to refute the "friend at work" and defend your interest in JWs.

    That should be enough to get him thinking.................


  • DesirousOfChange
  • wasblind

    Now don't get ole Wuz started on the Reasoning Book

    look all you want in the false prophet section of that book and you will see

    that they diliberately leave out Duet 18: 21- 22 cause it describes them.

    runnin' all around town tellin' lies in the name of Jehovah

  • garyneal


    Thanks, I really appreciate your thoughts. I tried the 1914 and this generation angle with an elder at my M-I-L's congregation. I published the e-mail exchange of that episode here. Unfortunately, he just copped out by saying that the whole date thing is not their core doctrine that that they are about loving God, neighbor, and understanding God's purpose (paraphrasing). He's a nice man, I met him in person twice, and he seems somewhat educated but he defended that doctrine to the end.

    In regards to saying 'my friend at work said X' angle. My wife knows I hang out here and that I read apostate websites. I don't think I can use that angle very long before my wife tells him about my activities. He may already know about them because my wife did tell an elder at her cong. This man seems a little 'ambitious' and I believe he grew up in a divided household himself and has been to churches before. Also, I understand that he has been studying with some of the other unbelieving mates of some of the other sisters in his cong. I guess he may be thinking that he can somehow 'reach' me.

    You are right about one thing, what evidence is there that this organization is spirit directed? Given all the changes, the failed dates, flip flops, and the like it is hard to call their teachings the TRUTH.

Share this