Why Won't They Carbon Date This?

by Perry 246 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • ziddina
    "...the info in this thread presents hundreds of problems for the darwinian worldview..."

    Only in yer dreams, dude, only in yer dreams...

  • Perry
    "He made it look old" is the biggest cop out on the planet

    Not at all. Adam and Eve were made fully formed, grown-up, with age. Why would you apparently allow for an all powerful God to do some things but not others? If the all-powerful is limited, then he isn't all powerful is he?

  • thetrueone

    A little education for Perry if he's interested.


    The Permian through Jurassic strata of the Colorado Plateau area of southeastern Utah demonstrate the principles of stratigraphy. These strata make up much of the famous prominent rock formations in widely spaced protected areas such as Capitol Reef National Park and Canyonlands National Park. From top to bottom: Rounded tan domes of the Navajo Sandstone, layered red Kayenta Formation, cliff-forming, vertically jointed, red Wingate Sandstone, slope-forming, purplish Chinle Formation, layered, lighter-red Moenkopi Formation, and white, layered Cutler Formation sandstone. Picture from Glen Canyon National Recreation Area, Utah.

    Stratigraphy, a branch of geology, studies rock layers and layering (stratification). It is primarily used in the study of sedimentary and layered volcanic rocks. Stratigraphy includes two related subfields: lithologic stratigraphy or lithostratigraphy and, biologic stratigraphy or biostratigraphy.

    [edit] Historical development

    Engraving from William Smith's monograph on identifying strata based on fossils

    The theoretical basis for the subject was established by Nicholas Steno who re-introduced the law of superposition and introduced the principle of original horizontality and principle of lateral continuity in a 1669 work on the fossilization of organic remains in layers of sediment.

    The first practical large scale application of stratigraphy was by William Smith in the 1790s and early 19th century. Smith, known as the Father of English Geology, created the first geologic map of England, and first recognized the significance of strata or rock layering, and the importance of fossil markers for correlating strata. Another influential application of stratigraphy in the early 19th century was a study by Georges Cuvier and Alexandre Brongniart of the geology of the region around Paris.

    [edit] Lithologic stratigraphy

    Main article: Lithostratigraphy Chalk layers in Cyprus - showing sedimentary layering

    Lithostratigraphy, or lithologic stratigraphy, is the most obvious. It deals with the physical lithologic, or rock type, change both vertically in layering or bedding of varying rock type and laterally reflecting changing environments of deposition, known as facies change. Key elements of stratigraphy involve understanding how certain geometric relationships between rock layers arise and what these geometries mean in terms of depositional environment. One of stratigraphy's basic concepts is codified in the Law of Superposition, which simply states that, in an undeformed stratigraphic sequence, the oldest strata occur at the base of the sequence.

    Chemostratigraphy is based on the changes in the relative proportions of trace elements and isotopes within and between lithologic units. Carbon and oxygen isotope ratios vary with time and are used to map subtle changes in the paleoenvironment. This has led to the specialized field of isotopic stratigraphy.

    Cyclostratigraphy documents the often cyclic changes in the relative proportions of minerals, particularly carbonates, and fossil diversity with time, related to changes in palaeoclimates.

    [edit] Biostratigraphy

    Main article: Biostratigraphy

    Biostratigraphy or paleontologic stratigraphy is based on fossil evidence in the rock layers. Strata from widespread locations containing the same fossil fauna and flora are correlatable in time. Biologic stratigraphy was based on William Smith's principle of faunal succession, which predated, and was one of the first and most powerful lines of evidence for, biological evolution. It provides strong evidence for formation (speciation) of and the extinction of species. The geologic time scale was developed during the 19th century based on the evidence of biologic stratigraphy and faunal succession. This timescale remained a relative scale until the development of radiometric dating, which gave it and the stratigraphy it was based on an absolute time framework, leading to the development of chronostratigraphy.

    One important development is the Vail curve, which attempts to define a global historical sea-level curve according to inferences from world-wide stratigraphic patterns. Stratigraphy is also commonly used to delineate the nature and extent of hydrocarbon-bearing reservoir rocks, seals and traps in petroleum geology.

    [edit] Chronostratigraphy

    Main article: Chronostratigraphy

    Chronostratigraphy is the branch of stratigraphy that studies the absolute, not relative, age of rock strata.

    Chronostratigraphy is based upon deriving geochronological data for rock units, both directly and by inference, so that a sequence of time relative events of rocks within a region can be derived. In essence, chronostratigraphy seeks to understand the geologic history of rocks and regions.

    The ultimate aim of chronostratigraphy is to arrange the sequence of deposition and the time of deposition of all rocks within a geological region, and eventually, the entire geologic record of the Earth.

    A gap in the geological record is known as a hiatus and is thought to be caused by non-deposition. [ 1 ]

    [edit] Magnetostratigraphy

    Main article: Magnetostratigraphy

    Magnetostratigraphy is a chronostratigraphic technique used to date sedimentary and volcanic sequences. The method works by collecting oriented samples at measured intervals throughout the section. The samples are analyzed to determine their detrital remnant magnetism (DRM), that is, the polarity of Earth's magnetic field at the time a stratum was deposited. For sedimentary rocks, this is possible because when very fine-grained magnetic minerals (< 17 micrometres) fall through the water column, they orient themselves with Earth's magnetic field. Upon burial, that orientation is preserved. The minerals behave like tiny compasses. For volcanic rocks, magnetic minerals that form as the melt cools orient with the ambient magnetic field.

    Oriented paleomagnetic core samples are collected in the field; mudstones, siltstones, and very fine-grained sandstones are the preferred lithologies because the magnetic grains are finer and more likely to orient with the ambient field during deposition. If the ancient magnetic field was oriented similar to today's field (North Magnetic Pole near the North Rotational Pole) the strata retain a normal polarity. If the data indicate that the North Magnetic Pole was near the South Rotational Pole, the strata exhibit reversed polarity.

    Results of the individual samples are analysed by removing the natural remanent magnetization (NRM) to reveal the DRM. Following statistical analysis the results are used to generate a local magnetostratigraphic column that can then be compared against the Global Magnetic Polarity Time Scale.

    This technique is used to date sequences that generally lack fossils or interbedded igneous rocks. The continuous nature of the sampling means that it is also a powerful technique for the estimation of sediment accumulation rates.

    [edit] Archaeological stratigraphy

    Main article: Archaeological stratigraphy

    In the field of archaeology, soil stratigraphy is used to better understand the processes that form and protect archaeological sites. The law of superposition holds true, and this can help date finds or features from each context, as they can be placed in sequence and the dates interpolated. Phases of activity can also often be seen through stratigraphy, especially when a trench or feature is viewed in section (profile). As pits and other features can be dug down into earlier levels, not all material at the same absolute depth is necessarily of the same age, but close attention has to be paid to the archeological layers. The Harris-matrix is a tool to depict complex stratigraphic relations, as they are found, for example, in the contexts of urban archaeology.

  • ziddina

    Ah, THANK YOU, The True One!!

    I symbolically kiss your toes for putting the time into posting that!!

  • Perry
    A gap in the geological record is known as a hiatus and is thought to be caused by non-deposition

    the true one,

    Can you provide just one example where the entire geologic column seen in text books appears in nature? How about the Grand Canyon, the deepest land crevice in the world?

  • thetrueone

    The earth in its very long evolution has changed dramatically in surface elevation and character from low level sea beds becoming high

    mountain tops due to Teutonic movement, it is for this reason why we find fossils today far up in the Himalayan mountain range and elsewhere.

    Under that known realization, where do you think it would be possible on earth at one location to even find a complete geological column.

    Just because one location like the Grand Canyon doesn't hold any fossil records or very little does not disprove biological evolution here on earth..

    The geographic landscape of the surface of earth has been changing continuously for eons and most of the earth surface is covered

    in water, adding that climatic changes have also occurred, making it possible for some species to flourish in one place and others not but perhaps

    elsewhere. These are the reasons that finding a complete biological column at one single location is highly improbable if not imposible.

  • poopsiecakes

    Adam and Eve were made fully formed, grown-up, with age. Why would you apparently allow for an all powerful God to do some things but not others? If the all-powerful is limited, then he isn't all powerful is he?

    ahhh yes, I didn't realize you have actual factual evidence to back up your claim. Well done, you win!! boy do I feel silly....

  • thetrueone
    Direct radiometric dating of dinosaur bones using the U-Pb method,

    Well, they've finally done it. In a Geology article published last month, Fassett et al. (2011) described their application of the Uranium-Lead (U-Pb) radiometric dating method directly to fossilized dinosaur bone. In addition to applying a known dating method to a completely new type of sample, the authors' specific goal was to demonstrate from independent evidence that dinosaur bones found in an early Paleocene sandstone were not inherited from older strata. Why is this important? For two reasons. Until now, only circumstantial evidence has been available that any (non-avian) dinosaur taxa survived past the Cretaceous-Paleocene boundary (65.5 million years ago), but the 64.8 (±0.9) Ma age obtained from their 'bone in question' provided a powerful argument that the creature lived after the global extinction event (albeit less than 1 million years after and in a single locality). The second reason is that the geologists were able to date directly something other than an igneous rock, and surely this has never been done before...right?

    If you learned about radiometric dating from a textbook in school (like me), then you were likely taught geochronology as it was ~60 years ago, and in a simplified format: igneous rock cools to form crystals, single parent decays into single daughter element, crystal acts as a closed system, initial daughter concentration is known, decay rate is known and constant, etc. There is nothing wrong with this picture, and these principles are important in many radiometric dating methods employed today. But for anyone interested, geochronology has come a long way since its original applications. Scientists have since been able to place direct radiometric dates on lake sediments, calcite cements, black shale, speleothems (i.e. cave rocks), fossilized teeth, detrital minerals in ancient sediments, coral reefs, and even ground ice! These specimens range in age from Proterozoic (1.8 billion-year-old black shale) to present day (modern lakes, caves, and permafrost), and are commonly dated through multiple independent methods.

    On the other hand, it would be unfair to give anyone the impression that U-Pb dating of a dinosaur bone is no big news. When dealing with non-igneous samples, many of the basic assumptions (mentioned above) go out the window and so the method becomes very complicated. For example, complete fossilization of the dinosaur bone may have taken several thousand years (or more) to complete, so the "age" of the bone is not the same across the whole sample. The apparent age depends on current uranium and lead concentrations, the former of which was incorporated into the bone as the original bone material was replaced by silica. Over time, both parent and daughter can be lost through fluids in a porous sandstone, or uranium can be added through further permineralization. In other words, it must be assumed that your 'crystal' acts as an open system and that many of the dates can or will be wrong. Normally, U-Pb data are plotted on a concordia diagram to quantify the loss of uranium or lead, but since dinosaur bones do not act (geochemically) like a magma chamber and the fluid chemistry is variable over time, there is no easy way to detect such disturbances since the time of deposition. Instead, the authors plotted U-Pb ages vs. the ratio of radioactive uranium to stable lead (238U/204Pb) to look for trends that would indicate uranium enrichment or lead loss (both of which can make the sample appear younger). In the first sample, they found good evidence that uranium enrichment had occurred (near 20 Ma) and that various diagenetic processes produced a scatter in U-Pb ages throughout the bone, while the second sample was less disturbed and yielded more consistent U-Pb ages. Available radiometric and geomagnetic dates for the rocks containing the fossils agreed very well with the obtained U-Pb age of each bone sample once diagenetic effects were accounted for (73.04 Ma vs. 73.6 Ma for Sample 1; 65.1–64.0 Ma vs. 64.8 Ma for Sample 2). In short, the authors' results are very encouraging for both geochronologists and paleontologists, and provide good evidence that the dinosaur bones were 73.6 and 64.8 million years old, respectively.

  • Leolaia

    What basis is there for expecting the whole sequence to be preserved in a single locality or region? The earth's surface has been very active with tectonic and erosional processes and really preservation of the whole sequence can only be possible in cratons and probably only especially stable cratons. There are examples of nearly the whole column from Pre-Cambrian to Pleistocene preserved in such places.

  • Leolaia

    The entire sequence from Devonian to Tertiary (Pliocene) preserved at Bonaparte Basin:

Share this