Christians used to be sure of what they believed...

by THE GLADIATOR 68 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AGuest

  If you want to say the Lord is an alien, then at least you are admitting it falls in the three, still.

  Seriously, Jer? I would be admitting that, yes... but apparently, you wouldn't be. Here is "the three":

  1. AGuest is lying. 2. AGuest is wrong, but thinks she hears the voice.
  3. AGuest genuinely hears the voice of the Lord.

  However, you yourself went outside of this and created a fourth choice when you stated:

  If aliens are supplying the voice, then AGuest is wrong.

  That can't fall under No. 1... as even if it was an alien, that doesn't mean I'm lying. It can't fall under No. 2 because, even if it is an alien... that fact that I HEAR it would mean I'm not wrong. It certainly doesn't fall under your No. 3. Because, by YOUR definition "an alien" is automatically "wrong."

  BTW, just in case you forgot... it is CHRISTIANS who are aliens, Jer. Not as in sci-fi creatures ... but as in those are who displaced/disenfranchised/temporarily residing away from their homeland (you know, the OTHER meaning of the word "alien"). Like many Jews.

  Look up your words, Jer... please...

  A slave of Christ,

  SA, who obviously had nothing "better" to do just now...
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Joey:not picking on you but you make a point I have problems with, you see I can apply your definition of faith to any religion and call it a day.

  Thank you. Yes, we do disagree.

  Biblically, faith/righteousness/salvation comes entirely from without, based completely on the work/merit of another more worthy than ourselves. It is grace alone, by faith, alone, through Christ alone. Religion teaches (including WTS religion) that faith/righteousness/slavation is something you attain to, you merit, you work for and ultimately you deserve. Ultimately then, religious faith, is faith in ourselves.

  The difference can be stated this way: Religion is "do"; Christianity is "done". The fact that it is done, is the Christians' grounds for faith/assurance, joy and endless thankfulness.
• 

  moshe

  Ten minutes in person might clear up the subjective notion of many here, that some what's his name lord, is speaking to humans today.. Isn't this how, Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon religion got his start?

  
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  I have just returned from an annual chilli festival in West Dean Sussex UK. Tasted some mighty hot chillies but was not prepared for the heat on this thread.

  With regard to my ‘jealousy’ towards Shelby hearing from Jesus, I believe I have adequately explained myself. Nevertheless I would like to share a moment from my past.

  When I was a boy we had very little in the way of material things. My brothers were always bored with nothing to play with. I was never bored. Fortunately I had a vivid imagination. I could conjure up anything I wanted in my imagination. I had imaginary conversations with people. I heard voices and made friends with people who existed only in my mind. I could make up jokes, tell them to myself and laugh out loud when I got to the punch line.

  I even had a horse that I could gallop down the road to the local store on. The lady store owner always asked how the horse was and gave me free nuts to feed it. I also had a panda that was so real he had a small chair of his own to sit on. Occasionally a place was set at the table for the panda.

  One day I announced that the panda had gone. My father asked where? I told him that didn’t need him any more. Soon after, the horse went too. Now I have to live in the real world. I envy people who are still capable of such illusion.

  Peace
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  ... that fact that I HEAR it would mean I'm not wrong.

  You are wrong thinking it is the Lord. Number 2 complete should read:

  2. AGuest is wrong, but thinks she hears the voice ....of the Lord.

  I left that out on accident, but that's what I meant. Shouldn't the voice tell you what I meant?

  It's Gladiator's thread. Carry on with him and forget everything I said.
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  It's Gladiator's thread. Carry on with him and forget everything I said.

  Thanks OnTheWayOut but this is everybody's thread and people should express how they feel. We all see the theist non-theist debate from our own perspective.

  Many believers have become atheists and many atheists have become believers. We are all subject to change and robust debate is essential to the process.
• 

  Twitch

  I don't think christians are exempt from debating and defining what they believe, much like any religion. It would seem if there was a universal truth, it would be something all could see and agree on. The fact this isn't the case proves how subjective the subject is. In fact, there are thoe who are not christian who are just as inspired, just as loving and live as faithfully and with as much compassion as any christian. The voice in my head sees the good in all belief where it is apparent. My voice is me, my consciousness and I listen to it but it doesn't tell me I'm touched by god. Thus I live in the here and now.
• 

  Band on the Run

  I believe in Christ b/c Jesus is the Savior/God of my culture. If I were born in China, I'd prob. be a Buddhist, Taoist, or Maoist? India - Hindu. It is too relative. Also, supposedly it is so vitally important to serve the right God. Atheists practice the social gospel far better than most Christians.

  C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity and Karen Armstrong in her book about God note that all cultures have comparable moral codes.

  I refuse to believe that the God of all chooses people solely based on geographical circumstance. Why would God favor Northern European whites? Such a tiny fraction of the world's population. Grace cannot proceed on social standing in a minute chunck of history.

  Perhaps God has ways for non Christians. If He does not, I do not believe in Him.

  I know some African-Americans believe they are black Israelites. Is that what is going on?

  Peace to all, hard not to make a biting crack but refraining.
• 

  AGuest

  Ten minutes in person might clear up the subjective notion of many here, that some what's his name lord, is speaking to humans today.. Isn't this how, Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon religion got his start?

  My understanding is that he claims to have met up with some angel named "Moroni", dear Moshe (peace to you!). Given his professional and political aspirations in connection to THIS world, however, I would offer that if he DID (and I highly doubt it), Moroni certainly wasn't an angel of my Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

  Number 2 complete should read:

  Yes, but it didn't, Jer...

  I left that out on accident, but that's what I meant.

  Oh, you mean... "See, what it was, was..." Yeah, okay. Right. Go on 'n fix it, bruh...

  forget everything I said.

  Yes, of course. Would be easier, though, if you would just stop saying such peurile stuff sometimes. Makes my heart go out to you, truly... and makes me wanna "educate" you, just a little. You know, so you don't always look so... well, you know what I mean...

  this is everybody's thread and people should express how they feel. We all see the theist non-theist debate from our own perspective.

  Thank you, dear Glad (again, peace to you!). I personally don't understand why certain NON-believers get so up in arms. I mean, what is it to THEM? I could see if I ran around saying, "You MUST be a christian or you're gonna die!"... or "God HATES those who are not christians and/or don't believe in Christ!" THAT would rile me, I think. It does pinge on me a little... because it's not true or accurate. The whole "christian" thing is about... and to... Israel - and those who go with - who make up the rulers of the kingdom of God. It is not about the subjects of that kingdom.

  Thus, the lion's share of my posts are either to those who PROFESS TO BE "christians"... or in defense of MY faith, sometimes even to those who so profess. I can understand when some of THOSE have an issue with what I post... because of their profession of FAITH... but inability to HEAR. I get that. But those who say they absolutely do NOT believe - why take issue with MY faith?? Indeed, why take issue with MY faith... more than that of others?

  Because... such ones "understand" the [lack of] faith of these others; because they shared it, at one point. Mine, however, is something different, something such ones have never THOUGHT of, let alone HEARD of. But... anyone can certainly READ about it... and those whose faith was similar. Particularly those who claim to have faith in the Bible. I mean, after all, it is in there...

  I would like to share a moment from my past.

  Thank you for sharing that and I get what you mean; however, I have to say that I never had such "friends" or experiences. I did hear my Lord's voice as a child... on several occasions... and each time it either saved my life... or tried to warn me to pending harm. Each time. I did not know... until my Lord called me by name... that it was him. I knew "someone" was there; however, it was never a "person"... but only a voice. Whether it was the voice of God, of "Jesus", of an angel, a "demon", or an ancestor... I did not know. To hear folks tell it, it could have been any one of these. I ALWAYS knew, however, that is wasn't ME.

  And I still know that now. Truly, there is absolutely NO WAY I would and could know... hear... and see... the things I do... on my own. Absolutely NO way.

  But the original thought was that christians USED to be sure of what they believed. That SOME no longer ARE... doesn't negate the existence of those of us that DO. I absolutely know what I believe. I am as sure of it as I am of who and what I am. And I can say that... openly and with full conviction. Unfortunately, that seems to rub some folks the wrong way. Should I, then, start pretending that I DON'T know... even lying... so that such folks WON'T be rubbed wrong? That is a serious question... and I look forward to what you and others might have to say about that.

  Again, peace to you!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Twitch

  And I still know that now. Truly, there is absolutely NO WAY I would and could know... hear... and see... the things I do... on my own. Absolutely NO way.

  Is that why some posts are signed by jesus and some by just you? As in "on your own"? How do you differentiate between what you are saying and what you perceive the lord is saying through you? Do you believe you have special knowledge or are an instrument of god? Do you believe you are helping others find light by sharing your insight or what is shown to you? How is this different from any other person of christian faith? And how is that different from the words and deeds of any inspired person of any other faith? What makes your hebrew god special? Ultimately, if one does not believe in the christian version of god, is one any worse off?

  Just some questions off the top of my head. If it seems rude, well forgive me for foregoing the emotional appeal of your writing, just writing what my voice is telling me. I don't have a name for my voice though.