In response to Standfirm's comment about the two witness rule.

by life is to short 67 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

• 

  life is to short

  Clarity

  Thank you for your kind words.

  Also OTWO I loved all that you wrote. You said what I wanted to but did not have the words. This just cannot be the true religion or else God would step in even if it just meant taking out the child molester by having him get killed or something to stop the crime. But to say Jehovah is allowing it to keep happening year after year waiting on Jehovah to reveal it in His time is crazy thinking. So more and more children will be hurt because Jehovah is allowing it? OK then I do not want anything to do with that God.

  JRK Thank you for the flock book where you sited Here is the exact wording from the new cluster-Flock book (pages 71-72):

  "If there are two or three witnesses to the same

  kind of wrongdoing but each one is witness

  to a separate incident, the elders can

  consider their testimony. While such evidence is

  acceptable to establish guilt, it is preferable to

  have two witnesses to the same occurrence of

  wrongdoing.

  • The testimony of youths may be considered; it

  is up to the elders to determine whether the testimony

  has the ring of truth."

  JK

  I was looking for that and did not know where it was in the book. Flipper had pointed it out before also I thought and I was going to call him to see where it was. It is not under the subject of child abuse, I wonder why? Yeh that's right they like to keep things hidden, silly me.

  JRK you really nailed Standfirm with that one. This is the latest info out there on how to handle child abuse. Nothing has changed. Nothing.

  Yet the still slam the Catholic's.

  I am so glad Jaycee Dugard is speaking out, I know it had to have been so hard for her to do that but it is just as hard for me and anyone else who has been molested to speak out. At least with Jaycee people believe her no one is telling her how wonder the Garrido's are and that she just miss understood them. She is lucky fortunate in that. Funny we could not use the word luck but yet a man can molest a child in this religion and without two witness to the crime nothing is done. But God forbid you use the word luck or all the back board at the hall the bulletin board.

  Jaycee did not have two witness to her crime, yet the police believed her? If she had, had to have went to the elders instead of the police first she would still be in the backyard.

  It just makes me cry to know these things. This religion is just sick and to defend it is unreal. What about all the Jaycee Dugards who are not being believed in this religion.

  I loved the end of Jaycee's book where she uses the the letter JAYC "Just Ask Yourself to ....Care1"

  No Standfirm I am not picking on the elders they have done it to themselves and they truly1 DO NOT CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  LITS
• 

  talesin

  LITS

  Amazing and brave post!! You are NOT alone.

  And let's not forget that (at least when I was young) if the pedophile was a Special Pioneer, they just 'reassigned' him,,, the same as the Catholic priests ...

  StandFirm -- sorry to burst your bubble, but you don't have a leg to stand on .... I PERSONALLY know of 3 cases where the BOE covered up for the abusers.

  Thankfully, failure to report is NOW an OFFENSE under the Criminal Code of Canada,,, hopefully, some of these 'cover-up' hypocrites will either start REPORTING TO THE POLICE or will be charged ... it is one of my fondest hopes.

  tal
• 

  thetrueone

  There are many disturbing aspects in regards to child abuse within the Watchtower organization.

  The obvious ones are that abusers can and will defy any wrong doing and do so knowingly because they can get away

  with their actions due to not have two other people who have witnessed what they have been accused of.

  Another troubling aspect is the WTS itself has once instructed elders not to encourage the possible unlawful attack to outside authorities.

  There has been somewhat of a flexing on this matter but it could quite easily occur since JWs do not like attracting this kind of attention

  toward themselves or their organization..

  When it comes down to it emulating the same social behavior morals of a civilization that existed 3000 years ago, is bound to create

  stupidly redundant laws and actions in are modern society and be complacently unjust to any innocent victims.

  This known two witness rule can even be blamed on creating other egregious behaviors taken on its face value for what it is.

  Side this up with the given expressed redemption of a persons individual sins and you have established a potential possibility of

  of some very destructive maligning behavior out of people.
• 

  truthseekeriam

  LITS,

  I just wanted you to know I feel for you and what you have been through. When I read your posts I feel your pain as if it were mine! My stomach stars to tighten up because I remember how I felt when facing some of the things you went through.

  Standfirm will never listen to our experiences because he doesn't care! He is only here to protect the Org by any means! Don't let him get to you ...he's not worth it!!
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  According to the Diane Sawyer piece, when caught, Phillip Garrido confessed. So be careful using such an example.
  Even in JW-Land, a confession establishes guilt, but it often establishes repentance and a reason to hush it all up from the congregation.

  But use that example as you did to show that authorities should be the first to be contacted, not some lawyers that might protect the interests of anyone but the victim. Maybe the lawyers for the local Dept. of Children's Welfare should be first consulted and everyone should follow their recommendations above all others. Afterall, the taxpayers will foot the bill for any lawsuit Jaycee manages to win. That's not fair to the taxpayers, so let's just keep screwing her over, she's used to it.

  See how taking things to the point of ridiculousness help us see how ridiculous Watchtower rules are?
• 

  talesin

  Another troubling aspect is the WTS itself has once instructed elders not to encourage the possible unlawful attack to outside authorities.

  There has been somewhat of a flexing on this matter but it could quite easily occur since JWs do not like attracting this kind of attention toward themselves or their organization..

  StandFirm --- did you read that? DID YOU?????? and True KNOWS ,,,,as do many others,,, the instructions given to ELDERS in the past ... yes, they are backing off now,,, too many people REAL people,,, are soooo angry about child abusers being protected.

  t
• 

  aSphereisnotaCircle

  Jaycee did not have two witness to her crime, yet the police believed her? If she had, had to have went to the elders instead of the police first she would still be in the backyard.

  yes, for one moment, lets assume that this case was handled by the elders.

  Garrido confessed and said he was sorry for his actions, that means the elders might see him as repentant and leave it at that or they may DF him. Jaycee of course, would have to sit alone in front of a panel of three men all asking about every detail of her abuse. The elders would then decide if she was repentant and they may or may not df her for immorality.

  The elders would not have reported this case to the police, unless the local laws require them to.

  LITS is right, if the elders had handled this case, Jaycee would still be in that backyard and she would likely be DF too. In the mean time, the worst that would happen to Garrido would be getting DFed.

  I base my assumption that Jaycee would be DF because I have seen no sign whatsoever of her "repentance" while Garrido has been very repentant.

  Among other things the elders would ask Jaycee

  "did you enjoy it"

  "did you orgasm"

  "did you scream"

  "why didnt you leave"

  "why didnt you ask someone to help you"

  All these questions would help them determine her level of guilt, and whether she was repentant or not.
• 

  Violia

  LITS I share your pain and frustration. at age 36 a memory was triggered ( age 14-15) by a conversation and my BOE went to the BOE of the elder involved and he did confess and they did place him on the list at the wts headquarters. This is the list Barbara Anderson spoke about. It apparently does exist. Of course he was not reported to the police, as I think it would have been too late anyhow. i think the wts is trying in some ways to clean up some of this due to lawsuits etc-not due to actually caring what happens to anyone.

  So in the end don't confuse caring with CYA.

  in contrast, I know a boe that covered over a 2 time confessed rapist and he even got praise from the stage.

  I went out the door of that KH like a bat out of hell .
• 

  mostlydead

  LITS, my heart goes out to you as you deal with this insanity. Please KNOW you're not alone. It isn't just an isolated incident in a random congregation. I agree wholeheartedly that one molester attracts more. How can a loving god stand by and watch the soul murder of innocent children and then allow them to be to condemned as unworthy of life because there's something wrong with them "spiritually"?

  This can keep you tied up in knots of anger and disbelief for years. I know this from personal experience. I encourage you, if you haven't already, to seek professional help. Rage against the perpetrators and those that enable them is completely justified, but at the same time it saps your strength. They don't deserve one more breath of your energy devoted to them. As soon as you are possibly able, turn that energy to healing and learning to find yourself and the peace that was stolen from you. It's taken me many years to get to that place, and occasionally, such as when I read a story like yours, the blind fury reemerges. But we can't stay there my friend. If we do, they've won.
• 

  life is to short

  Mostydead

  I know you are so right but I was reading Jaycee Dugard's book this weekend. It brought back all the pain I have been through and I guess I am a little jealous of Jaycee because she's believed by people no one is telling her 'oh it was not that bad, or the Garrido's at least loved you, look at least they gave you a tent to live in, or you could have had it so much worse, etc.' That was all the things I was told my the JW's who knew of my abuse.

  No one or most have not believed me. I was a cradle JW it was the only religion I ever knew and the only people I was around. My parents pulled me out of school as soon as they could to keep me locked in their sick prison. When they pulled me out of school at the age of 14 they were told by all the JW's they were doing the right thing and given high 5's for it.

  My parents thought I would live with them until the day they died and all the JW's went right along with this. When I tried to move out and fight to have a life I was belittled and even intimidated to move back in with my parents. It is a very long story. I may not have lived in a back yard but the house I lived in was beyond horrible. Finally when my parents were put in a nursing home the house was condemned by the city and yet still some of the JW's said that was not true the city did not really condemned the house that I was making it all up.

  OMG it makes you crazy. One of the first things Jaycee asked when she was released was 'am I crazy or is Phillip crazy. I totally know how she felt.

  Most of my life I have wondered why I feel so crazy. I was surrounded by JW's and no one else. I was always so different. I did not think and feel like they did yet I was in the true religion the only one God had chosen why was my thinking so different than everyone's else? What was wrong with me. Why did no one help me? I still do not understand it. Jaycee kept saying there were some things she proably would never know yet she still asked the questions in her book. Why? Is Jaycee like me even though she knows she will never get an answer she still would like one. I know I would.

  I have been getting some professional help but at times all the pain just comes back and it just will not leave for days. One person in my support group that I attend said it reminds him of pop ups on the computer, sometimes they come up and you can click them off other times they will just not leave no matter how much you try to click them away. He said that is sort of what us victims go through. Sometimes we can push the memories away and other times they just stay there for days. I think I am in one of the days things right now and Stasndfirm's defense of the religion was one pop up that just stayed around a little bit longer then I would have liked also reading Jayces's book was probably not the best at this time.

  By the way your name mostlydead does that mean anything to you. You said you had a past also. I know many days that is how I feel mostlydead myself. Just wondering.

  Thanks again for you support.

  LITS