In response to Standfirm's comment about the two witness rule.

by life is to short 67 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • OnTheWayOut

    StandFirm: Even if the person was somehow considered repentant, child abuse always means that a public reproof is given with a warning talk on the same subject, thus all will know what the person did.

    Sadly, NO. Often, the reproof is private. Probably the majority of the time, it is private and hushed up. Remember, WTS wants to hide these things. If the only people who know about it are the victim and a handful of adults, then they often use private reproof. Even a talk given on the subject does not identify the perpetrator to those who don't know what has happened. You really don't understand how WTS and congregation procedures work.

  • sabastious
    Being hardened in a course of sin, like abusing others, is generally considered indicative of lack of repentance.

    I'm starting to loath the word sin.


  • sabastious

    LITS I am very sorry for what happened to you. A painstaking injustice

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    There are at least two threads about child abuse and the two witness rule daily. I have two points: 1. I don't care it they are formally di'f'd. Notice to the congregation and the police should be the paramount concern. Since notice is only notice and not a conviction, corroboration is not important. Mandatory reoprters report. They do not weigh the evidence themselves. How can even the most rabid Witness send small children out in field service with an alleged perp. Alleged. Alleged. Alleged. Notice.Notice. Notice.

    2. We all make wonderful points against the two witness rule. This child abuse strand eptiomizes the big, impersonal borg at its worst. Humans on the other side are not publishers asking about overlapping generations or even divorce. Completely vulnerable and innocent children are at stake. The Witnesses act as if abuse were a lingering discrete moment in time. It happened. It is over. Nothing is further from the truth. These children are guaranteed to be haunted for the rest of their lives. With God's grace and counselling, they can move forward. They will always suffer, however. For the perp, it is a momentary release of sexual perversion. Not so for a child.

    The two witness rule is not an aberration. It reveals JW true nature at its very heart. Jesus said "Suffer the little children (they were not cute Victorain cherub children. They had no status in the First Century. Romanticism was completely absent, and still Jesus said, "Suffer the little children." What would Jesus do? What does the Borg do?

  • clarity

    LITS (())

    This expose you've written gives 'legs' to this subject in a way that I haven't seen before!

    Your words are beautifully and deadfully written and need to go viral.

    After reading this ... no one with even 1/2 a brain could ever say "just leave it in jehovah's hands" "it's repressed memories" bla bla

    Bad enough that this evil happened to you, worst still that your religious 'leaders' have managed to make it a million times worse by their disinterest, ignorance, cover-ups, incompetance, pure meaness and complete lack of love.

    Wish there were some powerful cleaning agent that could scrub all your sadness away.


  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Stand Firm sounds like he's never even been in a Kingdom Hall. I'm appalled at his defense of the indefensible Borg system of pedophile protection.


  • life is to short
    life is to short

    Thanks OTWO

    You are right there is no public reproof given and a warning talk on the same subject. That is so not ture Standfirm.

    In my hall we had a level 3 sex offender holding children and taking care of them. One of the elders in a public talk he gave all the time called this sex offender a gentle giant and talked about how his time in prison was just a miscarriage of justice. The way he described the man in his talk he left no doubt to the audience that the sex offender was the one he was talking about but the problem was all the audience knew was that he had been in prison unjustly, no one in the hall was allowed to know he was a child rapist. Who would know he was a sex offender who had served eight years for raping a child after that talk, which this elder seemed to some how give twice a year.

    Standfirm you said "I think that this is attributing bad motives to the elders. Even if some elders were so callous, such an attitude has always been condemned by the organization. People in the world in general have said similar things, but that doesn't mean all of the world has such a callous attitude."

    I was abused by many people when I was a child no one believed me, not the elders no one. When I got in my 20's and I tried to tell I was told I was not honoring my parents by telling what they had done to me from the elders and their wifes. They were my parents I was told plus my parents denied it all. Finally when I was in my mid 30's I started to speak out louder and louder and still I was shut down each time by the elders.

    I truly thought it was just the hall I was in that the elders were just strange or something like you said "Even if some elders were so callous, such an attitude has always been condemned by the organization." I blamed myself all the time, I thought of taking my life many times when the pain got to bad.

    Then I got married and we moved to different hall where the need was great, then to Bethel and then to another hall where they needed help and you know what it was the same no matter where I went. Still I kept my blinders on as my husband told me to do and think about the new system where none of this would happen anymore.

    My husband told me over and over that this is a perfect religion with imperfect people in it. I tried and tried and tired to keep my blinders on and not feel the pain that was aways there, I just tried to stay numb and wait for the new system to get here. Then we had a really bad pedophile move into the hall we were in.

    I went to the elders naively at first and thought for sure they would not let him go door to door, put instead of listening to me the elders got mad at me, yelled at me asking how I knew what I was saying was true where was my proof. I watched this man do what ever he wanted to in the hall and he was reaching out to do more all with the body of elders approval. I even got into trouble for not listening to him give talks, etc. I was told I was hurting his feelings.

    I went and got his police and court records, he is really bad on the level of Phillip Garrido he court records call him a sexual psychopath highly likely to re-offend. His police records spell out what he did the the children he raped. It did not matter to the elders in their eyes he was fine and I was in the wrong. Only the COBE would even take his records from me.

    It was only after this, after all my years growing up in a horrible home with tons of sexual abuse surrounded by JW's as we went to all the meetings and the only contact I was allowed to have with outside people was at the kingdom hall. My parents yanked me out of school in the 9th grade as they wanted more control of me. I had no one and no on in the religion gave a dam about me. Everyone saw I was being abused but no one stepped up. Why? I cannot even now wrap my mind around that. Why did on one help me.

    Not only did they not step up to help as a child but they did not want me when I grew up, I would met for service and would be told to go home as there was no room for me. I was an outcast in any congregation I went to. Even though my husband was an elder I was still never accepted, until this day I do not know why. I was stunted mentally I know, I wanted people to like and I did whatever it took to try to make that happen, I pioneered, had everyone over for dinner all the time, I went to Bethel, I tried to be the perfect JW. Nothing was enough.
    Then my parents got older and sick and then died. I was blamed for not taking care of them better, I had what I feel was a nervous breakdown.

    Oh I could go on and on but you get the picture.

    Having one child molester in the hall seems to breathe more child moesters. I swear they have some underground network going on and when they find a place that welcomes then they flock to it. So with the one child molester came two more that I knew of, we could have even more being the elders do not want anyone to know unlike what you said they give a local needs on it, I wish I knew what hall you went too but I have never seen in all the hall I have been to.

    So this one pedophile raped a 7 year old child and pimped out girls according to his court records. This pedophile was determined to work with my elder husband in service, every meeting he would say I will be out this next Satruday to work with you guys. I was sick at the thought of him even being in my car much less cold calling on peoples doors with a man who could rap a child. I knew the elders in my hall would demand that it happen so I went to the CO and asked him if it was really true that I would have to have a man who raped kids in my car. The CO told me he needed to think on it. I waited until the next day I did not sleep that night I was so sick with worry about what the CO would say. I still believed with all my heart that this was the "truth" Jehovah's true religion. The CO never came back to me so I approached the CO again, he was frustrated with me angry is more of the word I would use and told me I needed to get a handle on my emotions and just deal with it and yes I would have to have a child rapist in my car. My husband was an elder and he needed to take care of everyone in the hall. I looked at the CO with tears in my eyes which seemed to tick him off even more and said I was molested as a kid how can you ask this of me? First no one in the religion has ever believed me that I was molested and know this CO did not believe me then either. He just looked at me with disgust and that was the way it was, my husband needed to treat everyone the same. It was no different then if someone had been a drug addict or a thief, etc. And the child molesters crime was NOT TO BE TALKED ABOUT IN THE HALL.

    I lost it that day. I just wanted to die right then. I thought about going home and swallowing all the pills I could find in the house. I did not want to live in this perfect religion anymore.

    I grew up just like Jaycee Dugard but my problem is my tormenters were my parents and no one believes parents would harm their own child like that. Unlike Jaycee I have no one to believe me and the elders who saw it all happen they have all sided with the child abusers my parents and every other child molester there is.

    I do not know what the answer is, but the victims are always in the wrong. Standfirm it is not just in one hall it is in all the hall.

    OTWO is so right if this is God's true religion then God is sick.


  • wobble


    That is worth repeating.

    The Borg has no proper programme in force to stop it happening either.


    It only cares about covering up the extent of the paedophile problem, and not getting sued.


  • aSphereisnotaCircle

    Standfirm does not know what he is talking about, he stated.

    Even if the person was somehow considered repentant, child abuse always means that a public reproof is given with a warning talk on the same subject, thus all will know what the person did.

    Prove it standfirm, show me where the society says that it will publicly reprove a child abuser.

    And also please explain how a public announcement is an appropriate way of dealing with someone who has raped a child?

    Your saying that when jaycee Dugard was rescued from the Garridos. A public announcment warning people of the Garridos would be an appropriate way of handling the issue? But other then that, nothing more needs to be done?

  • aSphereisnotaCircle

    OTWo said

    "When they come forward, all these cases should be turned over to people outside of JW's who are trained to handle them."Standfirms reply was

    What if nobody wants to? Should the Witnesses override the person's free will? Leaving it up to the family what to do is the best way.

    Standfirm, it is usually someone in the family that is the abuser. So if the abuser is the dad, and he doesn't want to report it, then he shouldn't have to?

    Standfirm you also seem to be confused about sins, child abuse is not a sin, nowhere in the bible does it say it is a sin.

    Child abuse is a CRIME and should be reported every time!

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