Could Christians please respond; Is there a penalty for rejecting Jesus?

by nicolaou 109 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty

    Natural disasters, drunk drivers, etc. can affect believer or unbeliever.

    Don't confuse human action and natural disasters, god doesn't get off the hook that easy

  • Chariklo


    Why would an all powerful Christian God allow a town full of Born Againers to be killed by his creation.

    There's a really obvious answer to that....

  • PSacramento
    Why would an all powerful Christian God allow a town full of Born Againers to be killed by his creation.

    Tornadoes were around long before Christians, they get first priority ;)

  • designs

    Does the concept or meaning of Incongruous ever cross the minds of Christians. Apparently not so much.

    God is all powerful/except when things go wrong in nature

    The little kitty is found under the house flattened by the Tornado 'Praise Jesus!'

    The kitty is found mangled in the ruins of the house flattened by the Tornado 'God does not micromanage'.

    Little Timmy was found alive in the ruins of the house flattened by the Tornado 'Praise Jesus!'

    Little Timmy's mangled body was found in the ruins of the house flattened by the Tornado 'Jesus wanted him in Heaven', or I love Perry's idea 'the momentary pain was nothing in comparision to the eternal joy of being with God in Heaven'.

    Evangelicals make Witnesses look absolutely sane some days....and that's scary.

  • godrulz

    I do not believe Jesus wanted Jimmy in heaven, per se. That is man's thinking, not Bible. He does want us in heaven, but He is not Satan who comes to kill, rob, destroy, steal. He comes to give life eternal and abundant. What part of free will do you not understand? God is all-powerful, but that does not mean He divorces it from self-control and wisdom. He is not a big Man who steps on ants all day. I have lots of power as a human, but I don't use my full capacity all of the time. Deterministic views (Calvinism/Islam) are wrong views of sovereignty/providence. God could micromanage but He chooses not to for the sake of love and freedom. He is the God who risks. By giving us free will and letting nature take its course, bad things can happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. He macro vs micromanages. He is omnicompetent, not omnicausal. He could be the latter, but it would come at the expense of love, freedom, relationship. The fact that you can reject God shows that He is not controlling everything all of the time, but He could. His attributes relate to His character.

    God is wise and there are credible answers for evil, etc. You are fallen, finite, but being a godplayer. Instead of thinking you know it all or could run the universe better than God, you should be seeing God's glorious character, attributes, ways and worship Him.

    The message of the Bible is that God is God and you are not. You have it backwards and are dead wrong.

  • cofty

    letting nature take its course, bad things can happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. - godrulz

    Not so fast - according to you god designed nature. He decided tectonic plates would cause earthquakes and tsunamis. This has absolutely nothing to do with free will.

    If a man drives wrecklessly the car manufacturer cannot be blamed for his death. If the brakes fail due to a design fault the manufacturer doesn't get to pass the buck to the driver.

    For at least the third time of askig could you explain what natural disasters have to do with free will?

  • Pika_Chu

    @godrulz: so, you believe god created nature, but he doesn't micromanage. So, are you saying God can leave nature to "make" certain things on its own? Things like, say, mountains, he being the creator of law-writer of plate tectonics?

  • godrulz

    Geological issues can be explained by a global, catastrophic Flood (Noahic). What you guys fail to realize is that creation was originally 'very good' and that it is now fallen, groaning, waiting for a supernatural New Heavens and Earth in the future. We are living in New York, not the New Jerusalem. This is like a garbage can compared to creation restored in the future. The other factor you are missing is that there is a fallen, Satanic/demonic spiritual realm that Jesus dealt with. Not all storms are demonic, but some are. There is a genuine spiritual warfare that is wreaking havoc on the planet and individual lives. God could crush it all in a moment, but there are justice issues with irrevocable, but finite free will. We are in chaotic warfare now. This is not the way God created things nor the way He will leave them in the future. An anti-supernatural worldview leaves us without meaning, hope, purpose. God did not create Satan, but He did create Lucifer. He created paradise, not the present fallen mess.

    As a parent, do you control your children? Do your kids do bad things and would you go to jail if they did?

    Learn to think, folks. You are finite, but the infinite one has given us insight. He is in control without being all-controlling. One can lose battles and win the war. Revelation shows that the outcome is assured, but not yet. We are in between the now rule of God and the future not yet eschatological rule. We are not in the millennium, so quit expecting it to be paradise now. If we were in the millennium, evil would be taken care of, but you would be toast, so be thankful for this time of mercy/grace that you may repent before justice comes (death is also your enemy, not just His possible soon return).

    When you stand before God, the issue will be your personal sin and rejection of Christ, not how good or bad your theodicy (problem of evil) is or how many intellectual answers you have or not. I do not see you proposing a more coherent world view (you don't have one because it is godless and cannot explain reality).

  • designs

    'God does not kill'..... Au contraire godrulz 1Samuel 'I am a killer' says God.

  • godrulz

    Satan kills and destroys in an evil way. God, the giver of life, can take it away in righteous judgment. It would not be unwise or unjust to have taken Hitler out before he killed millions. Temporal judgment also happened to the people of God in discipline. How much more to kill a cancer before it affects innocent people? The problem is that you do not understand the blazing holiness/righteousness/justice of God (Moral Governor of the universe) and your own sinfulness or the great wickedness of man. We see centuries of mercy and grace and 3.5 years in the future of the wrath of God. God is patient, merciful, gracious, loving, but He is also holy, just, wrathful.

    You want a tame God in your own image. Jesus is God with a face, full of grace, love, truth. He is also the one we see leading the armies of God against evil in Revelation.

    Most people would want justice if their family member was raped and murdered, yet you seem to think God is evil in His judgments. You are a lousy godplayer. Buzz off. He is worthy of worship and you are defaming His name out of ignorant arrogance.

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