by Iamallcool 125 Replies latest members private
That year -- 1975 -- was a period of testing, of sifting, letting us know which of us were really dedicated to Jehovah and which of us were only dedicated to a date. Many of these "greedy persons" are no longer with us.
Letting us know ,who is us.......do you claim to be anointed eggs?
they do have a choir
remember in 2007 or 2008 before the new songbook came out and ruined singing?
remember the little preview they gave us at the convention as we all sat in our chairs and for the first time we heard AN ORCHESTRAL CHOIR performing them.
sounded like we were in a church. they obviously practiced together to do it in accapella.
REALLY FRIGGEN CREEPY.
and all the new songs SUCK! and they killed the old ones.
but i don't have to sing those anymore.
so YA THEY HAVE A CHOIR.
jerk.
@djeggnog wrote:
Yes, to some that were Jehovah's Witnesses at the time, but who have since left our ranks, 1975 had meant so much more. These used their faith in a date to run up their credit cards and encumbered the souls, reasoning that they would never have to pay back the financial obligations that they incurred to anyone since all of the world's institutions would be no more, thinking that "greedy persons" would actually be able to inherit God's kingdom. (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) That year -- 1975 -- was a period of testing, of sifting, letting us know which of us were really dedicated to Jehovah and which of us were only dedicated to a date. Many of these "greedy persons" are no longer with us.
@shepherd wrote:
This is an out and out lie!
It is? I believe this to be your opinion and you are entitled to have one, but isn't this just how you see things? However, I am not lying. Frankly, I don't even know you, so I have no reason to lie, nothing that would motivate me to lie. The onus is on you, sir, to prove that I am lying. Your statements you make to this effect are do not constitute proof.
As someone [who was] there throughout the 70's, 1975 meant Armageddon to virtually all JWs - not the least of which were the GB who never left afterwards at all!!
The year 1975 did not mean Armageddon on anyone that has ever studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. I mean, how on earth does one conclude upon reading Jesus' words at Matthew 24:36 that it was possible for any human being to know "that day and hour." Recall that Jesus was a human being that had spent a great deal of time with his heavenly Father before the earth first came to be inhabited by human beings and he included himself when he stated in this verse:
Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
-- so it would seem that you're suggesting here that "the Son" also knew that Armageddon was going to come in the year 1975. Jesus could certainly have calculated 1975 if he had wanted to do this back on Nisan 11, 33 AD, but the fact that he said included himself when he said "concerning that day and hour nobody knows," then it stands to reason -- if you have any interest in being reasonable, that neither he nor Jehovah's Witnesses could have rightly concluded that Armageddon would occur in the year 1975. And I feel I must at this time say the following:
All of our doctrinal beliefs are in writing, which is how it is possible to go back and find those doctrinal beliefs we've had to abandon as a religious body upon discovering that we were mistaken in our views, but where is the publication, the magazine, the book that the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society published that indicated 1975 to be when we anticipated, expected or predicted Armageddon to occur? Until you are able to provide an affirmative response to this question, then you cannot persuade me to believe that Jehovah's Witnesses have ever taught what you claim we taught about the year 1975. In short, we never taught what you have claimed here. I am not lying.
Now the year 1975 may have meant more to you and to those with whom you attended meetings at your local Kingdom Hall than it did to others, and I suppose it is even possible that such nonsense had spread throughout the circuit to which your Kingdom Hall belonged there in Great Britain, but it's simply not true that all Jehovah's Witnesses believed what you are saying you and other Jehovah's Witnesses you knew believed to be true in their expectations about 1975. We had similar problems here in the US in those days, just as I mentioned earlier regarding those that were driven by greed to do things that they would not otherwise do, but it is just not true that Jehovah's Witnesses here in the States believed that Armageddon was going to arrive in the year 1975.
As for the comment about running up credit card debts, our family never did, nor any I knew, BUT it was in fact mentioned on the platform at the District Convention in London that you could do just that!!!!
So what are you saying? That there were those with parts on the problem at your District Convention held in London that were stating as part of the program that one could run up their credit cards an any other debt because Armageddon was going to arrive in 1975? Where is your proof of any of this? Must I rely on your word that what you are saying to me here is true? (I won't take your word for any of this; I require proof.)
It certainly was a testing time afterwards. But not as you describe. It sifted out those who could see the GB as the false prophets they were and those who blindly continued to follow, either too proud or too stupid to admit they were conned. My family stayed, including me. It was years later before I could finally see that the GB were fakes.
So you would appear to be saying that you and your family were blind, were "either too proud or too stupid to admit" that you had been conned by Jehovah's organization into believing something to be true about the year 1975 that turned out not to be true. Is this what you are saying?
Your posts are long and very boring - I assume you must be at home counting the time, and probably typing slowly too to make the most of it...I am sure Jehovah is very pleased with your efforts........lmao
Then you shouldn't read my posts; pass on reading any of them (if you can). I am really just using your posts to speak to the lurkers that are reading this thread. What time I might spend here on this website is my own; I cannot report any of the time I spend discussing Bible-related topics here. My hope is that some of those who are in fade and some of those who are no longer associated with God's organization will read something I say here and realize that they need to return to Jehovah before it's too late for them to do so.
Websites like JWN are put up here in cyberspace for the entertainment pleasure of people like you, because they get you an outlet to bitch and moan and express some of your frustrations with some of the decisions you may have made in the past, decisions that you believe have proven to be bad ones for you. I cannot and do count any of the time I spend posting messages here, so your accusing me of doing something that I really cannot in all good conscience do makes you a busybody, try to mind my business when your business ought to be your priority, and not mine.
I live during the 21st century. I say this just to point out to you that it may have taken me about six minutes or so to dictate this post, plus a bit of cutting and pasting from previous messages I've posted here, so please don't you be overly concerned about whether I'm counting the time I spend here or harming myself in some way from all of the keystrokes I'm not physically typing , ok?
@poopsiecakes:
Oops do I smell some new light? I grew up believing in the WT's teachings that the end of the 1000 year reign would be the last segment of jehovah's day of rest and that his day of rest began after Eve's creation. Which is why the 7,000 years was/is integral to this belief.
Integral to what belief? In this thread, the OP is talking about the year 1914, but you seem to be discussing the year 1975, which is what @shepherd and @Morbidzbaby wanted to discuss as well, but all three of you are really off-topic. While I didn't mind touching upon the 1975 issue, "you guys" have really hijacked the OP's thread, and I'd really like to talk about 1914 and 607 BC, which is the year that is closely associated with the year 1914, not 4026 BC, and not 1975 AD.
WT chronology states that 1975 marked the 6,000 year anniversary of Adam's creation. Remember that?
Yes.
And that the years since 1975 correspond to the amount of time Adam was alone.
I don't recall this notion ever being taught as doctrine.
If you're confirming that the WT no longer teaches that the creative days are 7,000 years each, then you're confirming that 1914 is bogus and that this whole 'time of the end' stuff is false and that this 'wicked system of things' could easily go on for another thousand years or so.
What is the nexus between the seven creative days and the year 1914? Think about what I have just asked you here and if you dare, please provide it for me. I see no nexus between the length of each of the creative days and 1914.
@djeggnog
If you willfully refuse to see the correlation, then I can't help you. In order for 1914 to signal the beginning of the end, the 7,000 year creative days is VITAL because we agree that the end of the 1000 year reign ends the day of rest and that 1975 marked 6000 years. Otherwise, there's no need to preach a time of the end at this point in history. It all falls apart like a house of cards. Rather easily too. You seem like a smart guy and I find it shocking that you can't see what's so painfully obvious. Disregard one teaching and the other has no value whatsoever.
Djeggnog
you know it was taught that 4026 started the 7th creative day. you also know that the creative days were taught to be 7000 years long. you also know that it was taught the final 1000 years would be the Christ's reign. Unyet you deny they taught 1975 would be Armageddon.
It was said at the time we don't know the day or hour but we know the year. Also it was taught that the end could have come prior to the end of 6000 years we didn't know how long the tribulation and Armageddon would last. However once we arrived in the spring of 1975 it could only be a matter of months.
We abandoned what now? Jehovah's Witnesses will readily admit that we were speculating as to whether each creative day was 7,000 years long in length, which theory was based upon the fact that mankind has been here on earth for a little more than 6,000 years, actually 6,036 years.
The 7th creative day was taught to start not with Adams creation but with Eve's. So although the "fact" of Adam being created in 4026 and it being 6036 years. with the last thousand years of the creative day imminent it would seem it is still believed by JW to be a 7000 year creative day. It seems to me.
Maybe Adams creation date is wrong?
Maybe the 7th creative day continues on after the thousand year reign of Christ?
Maybe the 7th creative day is not the same length as the other days?
Maybe 1914 is not what JW say it is?
"Jehovah's Witnesses aren't sure how long each of the creative days or "epochs" were, for it's possible that each of them were 10,000 years in length or longer. We had only speculated that they may have been 7,000 years in length, but the Bible is silent as to what the length of these creative days were."
Maybe what you said in another thread is true? and you have many more years of preaching left.
Jws still believe 1914. However, 100 years after that date it is going to start looking like a dubious prediction, and 120 years on (2034) it will start to look foolish. Within a couple of hundred years of 1914 it will for a certainty be dropped completely. After 2050 I really doubt it will be referred to. It will just become another glossed over embarrassment, such as Russell's pyramids.
@poopsiecakes:
If you willfully refuse to see the correlation, then I can't help you.
I don't need help. You stated in your previous post that "the 7,000 years was/is integral to this belief," but you failed to tell me what belief. Now you write in your latest post:
In order for 1914 to signal the beginning of the end, the 7,000 year creative days is VITAL because....
The number of years that separate the year 1914 from the year 1975 is 61 years. In my previous post I asked you to prove "the nexus between the seven creative days and the year 1914, and to be more specific, I need you to provide the link between the end of 6,000 years of human history and the year 1914. You haven't done that, nor can you do this.
[W]e agree that the end of the 1000 year reign ends the day of rest and that 1975 marked 6000 years. Otherwise, there's no need to preach a time of the end at this point in history. It all falls apart like a house of cards. Rather easily too.
How do we agree? I agree that the 1,000-year reign of Christ Jesus would bring the seventh creative day to an end, but where I cannot agree is that the 6,000 years that would precede the 1,000 years comprise the length of the seventh creative day, and the reason I cannot agree is that we were only speculating that each creative day were 7,000 years long, and we now know that this calculation cannot be correct when counting from 4,026 BC for the Millennial Reign of Christ Jesus has not yet begun and we are now 6,036 years removed from 4,026 BC, which would make the creative day 7,036 years in length. Got it? Make sure you understand this before you go on to read my next point here.
Jehovah's Witnesses had considered it reasonable to conclude that each creative day was 7,000 years long, but we do not know when Eve was created, for only then does the seventh creative day begin. Got it? Do you understand what I am saying here with this point? Let's see if you do:
Adam is created (Genesis 2:7, 8) and the year is 4,026 BC. Now Eve is created (Genesis 2:21, 22), but when did this occur? Was it 30 years after Adam's creation? We know it wasn't, because the Millennial Reign of Christ has yet to begin and in our present year of 2011, we are now 6,036 years removed from the year of Adam's creation. Got it? Well, was Eve created some 50 years after Adam's creation? We don't really know, but if Eve was created when Adam had been alive for 50 years, then this would mean that the seventh day did not begin until 3976 BC.
Thus, if -- and I say "if" -- the sixth creative day ended in 3976 BC after the creation of Eve, some 50 years after Adam's creation, at which time the seventh creative day began, then were we to count 6,000 years after Eve's creation, we would then find ourselves in the year of 2025, would we not? It is possible, therefore, that the Millennial Reign of Christ will begin in 2025, but we don't have any scriptural way of knowing if this calculation is accurate. So we are just going to have to wait.
Furthermore, @poopsiecakes, if you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then God's promises no longer apply to you and the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ would mean that you will be perishing along with those that don't know God and with those that do not obey the good news, so what possible difference would your understanding these things now mean for you unless you are thinking about resuming your association with Jehovah's organization?
You seem like a smart guy and I find it shocking that you can't see what's so painfully obvious.
The Scriptures foretold that there would be those that would ridicule the teachings of Christ:
For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: "Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation's beginning." (2 Peter 3:3, 4)
What is so "painfully obvious" to me is that you are one of those to whom the apostle Peter was referring.
Disregard one teaching and the other has no value whatsoever.
There is no need to disregard any teaching. Anyone that does this, does so at their peril.
@The Finger:
you know it was taught that 4026 started the 7th creative day. you also know that the creative days were taught to be 7000 years long. you also know that it was taught the final 1000 years would be the Christ's reign. [And yet] you deny they taught 1975 would be Armageddon.
First, a "housekeeping" note: There is no word in either the US English or the UK English lexicon as "unyet," which is a non-word you have used before in your posts. My spell checker hates many of "you guys," because it often has to flag many of the words in the posts I paste into my word processor for typographical or nonsensical errors; "unyet" is in the "nonsensical" category since it isn't a typographical error, but a non-word.
Second, yes, I deny that we, Jehovah's Witnesses, ever taught that Armageddon would arrive in the year 1975.
It was said at the time we don't know the day or hour but we know the year. Also it was taught that the end could have come prior to the end of 6000 years we didn't know how long the tribulation and Armageddon would last. However once we arrived in the spring of 1975 it could only be a matter of months.
I don't care who it was that told you such things, pretending to know God's timetable. Tell me this: Did it never occur to you when you were hearing all of these strange things that you were hearing, @The Finger, to ask where in all of this the "great tribulation," that you were taught would precede Armageddon was going to occur? Since no one has as yet declared "Peace and security!" in the Republic of Israel, and the apostle Paul indicated that such would occur before the great tribulation begins, did it ever occur to you that none of these other things that the Bible talks about at Matthew 24:21 and 1 Thessalonians 5:3 had yet taken place?
Why do you think Paul stated what he does at Hebrew 5:14 about "solid food [belonging] to mature people..."? Because mature people are not apt to let their impatience for change get the best of them so that they ignore God's timetable, a sketch of which is provided in the Bible. Mature persons do not presume upon the Lord God Jehovah's patience, and use what little we know to twist the Scriptures, to make them say something that they do not say, something that only the "untaught and unsteady" do. (2 Peter 3:15, 16)
@djeggnog wrote:
We abandoned what now? Jehovah's Witnesses will readily admit that we were speculating as to whether each creative day was 7,000 years long in length, which theory was based upon the fact that mankind has been here on earth for a little more than 6,000 years, actually 6,036 years. We reasonably arrived at each creative day perhaps being 7,000 years in length by adding the 6,000 years that human beings have been alive on earth with the 1,000-year Millennial Reign of Christ. Although Jehovah's Witnesses have no way to determine to exact number of years of which each creative day consist, we have deduced that they each creative day is at least 7,000 years in length.
@The Finger wrote:
The 7th creative day was taught to start not with Adams creation but with Eve's.
This is true.
So although the "fact" of Adam being created in 4026 and it being 6036 years. with the last thousand years of the creative day imminent it would seem it is still believed by JW to be a 7000 year creative day. It seems to me.
Ok.
Maybe Adams creation date is wrong?
Maybe.
Maybe the 7th creative day continues on after the thousand year reign of Christ?
Maybe.
Maybe the 7th creative day is not the same length as the other days?
Maybe.
Maybe 1914 is not what JW say it is?
Maybe.
@djeggnog wrote:
Jehovah's Witnesses aren't sure how long each of the creative days or "epochs" were, for it's possible that each of them were 10,000 years in length or longer. We had only speculated that they may have been 7,000 years in length, but the Bible is silent as to what the length of these creative days were.
@The Finger wrote:
Maybe what you said in another thread is true? and you have many more years of preaching left.
Maybe. But what you quoted is confusing for it was something I stated in the "water canopy" thread, which doesn't belong in this thread. The topic here is supposed to be about 1914, and the succession of all of those "Maybe..." statements in your post aren't questions, but meaningless ponderables. I'd really like to see this topic move forward, and discuss the 1914 issue that is the topic of this thread.
@jwfacts:
Jws still believe 1914. However, 100 years after that date it is going to start looking like a dubious prediction, and 120 years on (2034) it will start to look foolish.
What makes you say this? It's clear to me that you don't understand at all what Jehovah's Witnesses teach, which makes you sound rather foolish to me, someone that knows well what it is we teach. I always think it interesting how someone that isn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses imagines that he or she can inform someone that is one of Jehovah's Witnesses what it is we believe or don't believe.
Within a couple of hundred years of 1914 it will for a certainty be dropped completely.
I'm not following you. On what basis do you say this?
After 2050 I really doubt it will be referred to. It will just become another glossed over embarrassment, such as Russell's pyramids.
Frankly, I don't know a thing about Russell's pyramids, and you would appear to be mixing apples and pecans here. You were just telling me some nonsense about 2050, but what if it were some 75 years after Adam's creation that Eve was created? Just think about this a moment. Would taking this hypothetical into consideration make the year 2050 make more sense or less sense to you? What if present world conditions should lead to the great tribulation about which Jesus foretold within, maybe, the next 14 years or so, like in the year 2025? Do you think the world's coming to an end in 2025 would give you enough time to do all of the things you wanted to do in this life since you have no real expectation of surviving Armageddon? (Just curious.)
@djeggnog
I don't care who it was that told you such things, pretending to know God's timetable. Tell me this: Did it never occur to you when you were hearing all of these strange things that you were hearing, @The Finger, to ask where in all of this the "great tribulation," that you were taught would precede Armageddon was going to occur? Since no one has as yet declared "Peace and security!" in the Republic of Israel, and the apostle Paul indicated that such would occur before the great tribulation begins, did it ever occur to you that none of these other things that the Bible talks about at Matthew 24:21 and 1 Thessalonians 5:3 had yet taken place
I don't really follow your reasoning here.
In the 1970's when we believed the autumn of 1975 would be the end of 6000 years of the 7th creative day. Right up until the spring of 1975 there was surely time for these events to occur. I don't think there was any set amount of time for the peace and security, i think it says sudden destruction. Are you suggesting there needed to be a set amount of time?
Thank you for pointing out about "unyet". Silly me.
I'm not impatient. It wasn't me that came up with these teachings. (Maybe your thinking of Pastor Russell and his beliefs about 1874 and 1914.)
Maybe. But what you quoted is confusing for it was something I stated in the "water canopy" thread, which doesn't belong in this thread.
Well i think it does.
As 1914 is pivotal to the teachings about the last days before the thousand year reign of Christ and you are suggesting that the creative days maybe 10,000 years long and you are agree that everything is a "maybe" and
meaningless ponderables
including what JW believe about 1914. It sounds as if you are unsure that you have observed the sign of Christ's presence of which you preach and therefore we are back to the title of the thread "Do JW's still believe in 1914?" I think you answered, Maybe.
LMAO, @djeggnog you are welcome to stay a JW - if you were any more blind you would have no eyes at all. Your arrogance, however, is amazingly clear for all to see.
You are right, I should just skip over your posts, and will in future......
