(marking for later)
Do JWs still believe in 1914?
by Iamallcool 125 Replies latest members private
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Mad Dawg
DJ said:
It seems, @Mad Dawg, that, for whatever reason, you didn't really understand my point. I wasn't really talking about counting forward 12 years; that was just an illustration. I was really talking about how we can ascertain when a particular event occurred based on established dates on which we know other things occurred.
I understand fully your illustration. What are the "established dates" and "other things" you are referring to? And how were these dates established?
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djeggnog
@poopsiecakes:
Well hell, with all of these wonderful sports and cinema references you're using, who knows what this wicked world will bring about in the next 5, 10, 50, 75 or 100 years from now that will make everyone say 'phew good thing the end didn't come yet or we wouldn't have had [insert amazing performance here]'.
I'm not someone that avails himself of what the world offers to the full (1 Corinthians 7:31), but my making the truth my own equips me to make mature spiritual decisions in my life, and my Christian freedom permits me to make smart choices. As the ensuing years peeled off as the year 1975 approached, I was living with godly fear of the true God, while it seems to me that there were many people during this time period that were living in morbid fear of Armageddon, paying more attention the ideas conceived by the men that were taking the lead among them as to the significance of 1975 than to the prophetic word. (2 Peter 1:19)
I've never seen anyone more ignorant and reckless than those who quit their jobs, deciding to live off their savings as they joined the ranks of those already in full time service that actually had the proper circumstances that permitted them to become pioneers in the first place, people that totally neglected their obligations toward those who were members of their households to 'provide for the material support of those who were their own.' (1Timothy 5:8)
There were people in the world, who were not Jehovah's Witnesses, that worked hard to provide adequate housing, furniture, clothing and food, and bought auto, health and life insurance that they knew would go a long way toward protecting family members from any unforeseen calamity, with the exception of Armageddon, of course, but there were Jehovah's Witnesses that lived in a dream world, who didn't do the kinds of things that someone, who was a part of this world, did for themselves and for members of their families, prudent things, reasonable things, smart things.
The households of these dreamers burgeoned as one child after the next came to be born, but without an adequate income coming in to pay the unexpected expenses that can and do arise when raising children, including the lack of health insurance when the breadwinner(s) in the family cannot work, these families suffered greatly, especially when a family member died without life insurance because they were of the firm belief that they would never die, that they would live right on to Armageddon and beyond.
Yes, these people were Jehovah's Witnesses, but they were all of them retarded and irresponsible parents for they were putting their faith in a date, putting their faith in the year 1975, instead of in the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus, for, just like today, there exists nothing in the Bible then to suggest that Armageddon was going to arrive in 1975. Seizing upon the enthusiasm that existed in the years before and during 1975, the WTS published many articles that encouraged the flock of God to "[keep] close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah" (2 Peter 3:12), including "What-if" articles that speculated on what it would mean were the Millennial Reign of Christ Jesus should immediately begin when mankind had reached the plateau of 6,000 years of human history, but at no time did the WTS predict Armageddon's arrival in the year 1975.
Other folks did that, and those Witnesses that listened to these folks, rather than to God's word, were the ones that made incredible decisions some 36 years ago, decisions that have adversely impacted their own lives as well as the lives of their children economically, academically and mentally, children who are now adults with children of their own to raise that are struggling as did their parents in those days to make a living due to the lack of education denied them by their parents on whom they had depended to prepare them for life as a mature adult having to compete with other adults in this world to make a living.
Due to an oil embargo that occurred under President Nixon back in 1973 in furtherance of the Arab-Israeli conflict, two Middle-Eastern countries attacked Israel in the so-called "Yom Kippur War," there were long gas lines as gas was being rationed to motorists here in the US based on one's odd- or even-numbered license plate at much higher prices, all of which led to the stock market crashing that same year, but at the close of 1974 there was no one saying "peace and security!" (1 Thessalonians 5:3) Many problems arose for people here in the US due to the oil embargo and the crash of the stock market that began in 1973 and ended by the end of 1974, but there was no great tribulation, no one declaring "peace and security!" during the entirety of 1975.
Now those Jehovah's Witnesses that believed 1975 to mean more than what it actually meant hurt themselves and harmed their own children, who are now adults themselves with children, as well as anyone that had been gullible enough to be persuaded that the end was coming in 1975. What had escaped their notice was the fact that the Bible is silent as to when it was Eve was created for it was not after Adam's creation by Jehovah, but after Eve's creation that the sixth creative day would have come to an end and the seventh creative day would begin. The apostle Paul exhorted Christians, at 2 Timothy 4:5, to 'keep their senses in all things, to suffer evil, to do the work of an evangelizer and fully accomplish their ministry,' but these Witnesses lost their senses.
Satan had ensnared many of those persons that left off from actively associating with us after 1976 as they realized how foolish that had been to pretend to know when the end of the world was coming when they had no real basis for believing what things they believed about 1975. I'm sure it was embarrassing for those that remained among us, but pointing fingers of blame as elders that are no longer walking with us or at the governing body of Jehovah' s Witnesses who stirred enthusiasm in the flock to keep their senses and were rejoicing in the possibility of what 6,000 years of human history could mean for those that had stayed awake. (1 Thessalonians 5:6)
I'll just say, @poopsiecakes, that life in this system of things is wrought with disappointments for many, with one coming after the next one, but it is no sin to live our lives as approved servants of Jehovah, which doesn't mean our having to forego entertainment or building homes or having and raising children.
If you know the foolishness of what people were actually doing with their lives in the years that led up to 1975, the kinds of decisions that they were making all based on a single idea, neglecting the material and economic interests of their family in order to pursue full-time service at a time when they could least afford to do so with many of them having very little formal education and an income that could not sustain an entire family while they are engaging in full-time service, then you must know how foolish it would be for anyone in 2011 to not "calculate the expense" of their getting married and raising children, and the costs attendant to the maintenance of one's household. (Luke 14:28)
@djeggnog wrote:
Second, I would think that only someone retarded or someone completely unaware of how the world works (like a teenager) would have been persuaded to pay heed to such advice from anyone. I don't know why, but for some reason I've been assuming here that you were an adult in 1975.
@The Finger wrote:
I have to admit I stopped laughing when I read this.
It seems kind of rude. It sounds like your saying my parents are retarded. Is that what you are saying?
You read what I wrote. You are an adult and I don't think I'm going to start imagining that you are a child whose tender feelings must be taken into considering when I speak with frankness. I didn't say that your parents are retarded, but by your asking me this question, what are you saying about your parents? BTW, here's another "housekeeping" note: Like that non-word -- "unyet" -- that you are fond of using, you here use the word "your" instead of "you're," which is a contraction for the words, "you are." Sometimes frankness can resemble rudeness, but I'm going to let you decide for yourself whether or not I was being rude to you, @The Finger. Let me put this another way:
If you believe what I said was rude, then I am in no position to argue with what you believe to be true any more so than I was in any position to argue with you in the years before 1975 that nowhere in the Bible does it state that Armageddon was going to arrive in 1975. If you believe that someone else it to blame for your belief that Armageddon was coming in 1975, then, in your opinion, someone else it to blame for what you believed to be true. Likewise, if you believe me have been rude, then, in your opinion, I was rude.
@mrquik:
Oh, one last thing. As for my experience in the truth. I had 50 years in. Married the PO's daughter. The PO was one of the anointed and knew Rutherford personally. I had dinner with Al Schroeder on numerous occasions as he was a family friend. I was an elder for 20 years. Was on the regional building committee for 10 years. Gave district assembly parts. Was WT study conductor for 10 years. Attended numerous kingdom schools. So I kinda know the "Truth"
Perhaps what you said here is an impressive statement, that is, for those who were impressed with it. Kinda knowing the truth isn't the same as knowing the truth, for so many of the people that used to actively associate with Jehovah's Witnesses, and some of them that still do actively associate with us, do not know the truth at all.
@djeggnog wrote:
This is exactly the point I was making as to dating when the events recorded in the Bible had to have occurred, for one need only do a bit of research and do a little math to determine when it was that a particular event occurred to be able to figure out the date when some other event recorded in the Bible must have occurred. It seems, @Mad Dawg, that, for whatever reason, you didn't really understand my point. I wasn't really talking about counting forward 12 years; that was just an illustration. I was really talking about how we can ascertain when a particular event occurred based on established dates on which we know other things occurred.
@Mad Dawg wrote:
I understand fully your illustration. What are the "established dates" and "other things" you are referring to? And how were these dates established?
No comment.
@djeggnog
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cantleave
Eggnog - haven't your read the 15 July WT yet?
Your leaders are telling you NOT to post on sites like this. So do us all a favour and piss off!
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still thinking
Djeggnogg
who might be sitting on the proverbial fence as to whether they should more actively pursue their faith in God
Can you answer a question about what you said here please. From my understanding, you seem to be suggesting that to actively pursue their faith in God they need to follow the Watchtower teachings.
Do you think that the only way we can be saved is to be baptised as a Jehovahs witness? Do you recognise that others are pursuing their faith in God even though it may not fit in with the way you see it? Or do you think everyone else that thinks they have a relationship with God and Jesus is deluding themselves?
I'm just trying to understand what you personally think, not just what the watchtower teaches.
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Mad Dawg
DJ said:
No comment.
Why do JW's loudly, proudly proclaim that the Scriptures prove that Jerusalem fell in 607 BC, then refuse to show how the date is pegged at 607?
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The Finger
Djeggnog,
It's not what i believe but rather what the FDS was teaching that is important. Unfortunately it was false. It was misleading.
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djeggnog
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djeggnog
@djeggnog wrote:
BTW, Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a choir, and if I am preaching to anyone, it isn't to those that have decided that they no longer wish to associate with us, whose choice I respect, but to those in fade who have not yet decided that they no longer wish to be in association with us and to those lurking this thread, who might be sitting on the proverbial fence as to whether they should more actively pursue their faith in God. We all have choices and so it is to them that I am preaching.
@still thinking wrote:
Can you answer a question about what you said here please. From my understanding, you seem to be suggesting that to actively pursue their faith in God they need to follow the Watchtower teachings.
If by "Watchtower teachings," you understand that what I am saying that those who are currently sitting on the proverbial fence must actively follow Bible teachings, then, yes, this is what I am suggesting.
Do you think that the only way we can be saved is to be baptised as a Jehovahs witness?
Yes; you must be wearing one of those "white robes" that the apostle John prophetically saw those that had come out of the great tribulation were wearing. These had "washed their robes and made them white in the blood the Lamb," and they were standing before God's throne "rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple, " John wrote at Revelation 7:13-15.
Do you recognise that others are pursuing their faith in God even though it may not fit in with the way you see it?
Yes, but their pursuit is in vain for one must have donned one of those "white robes" that John saw in his vision and I believe that no one, but Jehovah's Witnesses have been issued these robes.
Or do you think everyone else that thinks they have a relationship with God and Jesus is deluding themselves?
Yes, I do believe that everyone that is not in association with God's people, but thinks that he or she has a relationship with God and with Jesus is totally deluding themselves. At 1 Corinthians 14:37, the apostle Paul stated: "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or gifted with the spirit, let him acknowledge the things I am writing to you, because they are the Lord's commandment." No one that fails to acknowledge the things that Paul wrote can say that they have been "gifted with the spirit." More to the point, Paul went on further to state at Galatians 6:3, "For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving his own mind." If one thinks he or she is one of those that John saw standing before the throne rendering sacred service to God, "day and night in his temple," and yet he or she does not render sacred service to God, "day and night in his temple, just as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses are doing, then, yes, I would conclude that he or she is delusional.
I'm just trying to understand what you personally think, not just what the watchtower teaches.
I have just told you what I personally think, for while the Watchtower is just a magazine that Jehovah's Witnesses produce, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses that is teaching what the Bible says to all mankind regarding the need to pursue sanctification in connection with Christ Jesus, "who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom." (Hebrews 12:14; Corinthians 1:30)
@djeggnog wrote:
This is exactly the point I was making as to dating when the events recorded in the Bible had to have occurred, for one need only do a bit of research and do a little math to determine when it was that a particular event occurred to be able to figure out the date when some other event recorded in the Bible must have occurred. It seems, @Mad Dawg, that, for whatever reason, you didn't really understand my point. I wasn't really talking about counting forward 12 years; that was just an illustration. I was really talking about how we can ascertain when a particular event occurred based on established dates on which we know other things occurred.
@Mad Dawg wrote:
I understand fully your illustration. What are the "established dates" and "other things" you are referring to? And how were these dates established?
@djeggnog wrote:
No comment.
@Mad Dawg wrote:
Why do JW's loudly, proudly proclaim that the Scriptures prove that Jerusalem fell in 607 BC, then refuse to show how the date is pegged at 607?
No comment.
@The Finger:
It's not what i believe but rather what the FDS was teaching that is important. Unfortunately it was false. It was misleading.
Ok.
@Joey Jo-Jo wrote:
You are also using the 607 debunked starting point that has already been discussed and proved to be erroneous.
@djeggnog wrote:
You are free to believe whatever it is you want to believe, but there is absolutely no one on JWN -- @Alleymom, @aligot ripounsous or anybody at all that thinks themselves able to prove scripturally that Jerusalem wasn't destroyed in 607 BC, but in 587 BC or in any other year that's out there -- that will successfully be able to debunk the date of 607 BC.
@Joey Jo-Jo wrote:
There is biblical and secular data that disproves 607BCE
Disproved by whom?
From the horses mouth (WB&TS mentions all kings during that period)
I have read this thread and it is, as the kids say, wack. Of course, you are free to believe what things you read in this read to which you referred me, but I am more than adequately in this very thread pointed out how bogus the reasoning that was used to disprove 607 BC as the date when Jerusalem was destroyed.
I can defend the year 607 BC that Jehovah's Witnesses use in establishing when Jerusalem became desolate, for it was after King Nebuchadnezzar had destroyed the city and led away from it as captives those that had remained after he had appointed Gedaliah as governor in Judah, after King Zedekiah, Jehoiachins uncle, had been blinded and taken away as a Babylonian captive from Judah to Babylon, that Jerusalem and all Judah laid desolate of all Jewish inhabitants in September of 607 BC.
Proponents of 587 BC as being the year when Jerusalem was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar's forces refuse to believe what the Bible clearly teaches as having occurred after Nebuchadnezzar's third siege on Jerusalem, that the prophet Jeremiah and his secretary Baruch were permitted to remain with the poor in Judah (Jeremiah 40:1-5) under the provisional government of Gedaliah, who had been appointed governor by Nebuchadnezzar, in the fifth lunar month of Ab, while only two months after Gedaliah's assassination, God's prophecy regarding the 70-year desolation of Judah underwent fulfillment. Two months!
Many people get this date wrong, not necessarily because they want Jehovah's Witnesses to be wrong about the year 607 BC (although many apostates do!), but because they think for some reason unknown to me that the Jewish prophet Jeremiah was in Babylon when Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem for the third time and dethroned Zedekiah in 607 BC, when Nebuchadnezzar appointed Gedaliah in Judah as governor before his later assassination by Judean military chiefs, but Jeremiah was in Egypt, not in Jerusalem, since Gedaliah's assassination, which was the second time Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem in 618 BC, at which time he has taken Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim's son, captive to Babylon. Now the first time that Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem was in 620 BC when Jehoiakim was king of Judah.
While tablets can not scripturally prove bible dates they do reconcile with the other biblical date 587BCE not held by Jehovah's Witnesses (but all other religions)
I don't see you have a real point here. What you have here is a difference of opinion, not anything resembling anything factual. No, while no dates are set forth in the Bible, it is by means of things that the Bible itself states and certain other evidence that is incontrovertible (e.g., the Nabonidus Chronicle) that one is able to calculate when it was that certain events occurred. That's what the proponents of 587 BC are doing, too, using what things they understand the Bible to teach and extrabiblical sources (like Josephus) as proof that 587 BC is a good date so that they might argue against 1914, but this date just doesn't fit the facts!
Then there is the issue that [Russell] linked scriptures to form this 1914 prophecy Jeremiah-[Ezekiel]-Daniel-[Revelation], that is totally dependable on 607BCE, however there is no proof that scriptures from these 4 books refer to other scriptures of other books like the 7 times and jesus prophesied something that had [occurred], etc.
Ok.
@djeggnog
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thetrueone
I can defend the year 607 BC that Jehovah's Witnesses use in establishing when Jerusalem became desolate, for it was after King Nebuchadnezzar had destroyed the city and led away from it as captives those that had remained after he had appointed Gedaliah as governor in Judah, after King Zedekiah, Jehoiachins uncle, had been blinded and taken away as a Babylonian captive from Judah to Babylon, that Jerusalem and all Judah laid desolate of all Jewish inhabitants in September of 607 BC.
But can you defend the fact that Nebuchadnezzar didn't come into power not until 605 BCE after the death of his father Nabopolassar
Woops... maybe the scribed prophecy of Daniel was done after the fact, another one of the many embellished stories of the bible ?