The mormons vs the jw?

by Nicolas 60 Replies latest jw friends

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Hi, refiners fire,

    You said, "Mormons used to believe that God inhabited a physical body. Whether they still believe that is a slippery issue."

    Nah, nothing slippery about it. It's still doctrine.

    You said, "(Eternal Progression) is hidden from public view. Anyone going to a Mormon meeting for the first time will hear nothing of such beliefs. He will only hear about Jesus, Jesus, Jesus."

    Funny, must anti-Mormons claim they never hear ANYTHING about Jesus at our meetings, which is of course pure trash since everything about us centers on Him. But Eternal Progression is a key doctrine and never hidden from anyone. It is thoroughly covered in the missionary discussions, and is often covered in lessons and talks given on Sunday.

    You said, "The second added "revelation" in D/C ... says Black people can now be members of the Priesthood...One wonders that the Civil Rights Movement might have prompted this change in Doctrine."

    No. Actually, several Presidents of the Church sought permission to make that change, but were refused until the Lord himself said the time had come. The reason why the wait was necessary is known to anyone who cares to investigate it, but it had absolutely zilch to do with anything happening here on earth at the time.

    You said, "Preexistant beings coming, by agreement, into this physicality for the purpose of experiencing "Fallenness" (as our doctrine, in your understanding of it).

    No, not fallenness, but mortality, which to us is not fallenness, but is an essential part of the Eternal Progression you mentioned previously, which required each of us to come here, experience mortality in a physical form, and learn to walk by faith.

    Thanks. Hope this helps.

    Susan

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Hi, MoeJoJoJo,

    I enjoyed reading of your experience with neighbors who blindsided you with the invitation to watch the video. Personally, I don't consider that tactic to be very nice, and hate it when someone does that to me, so wouldn't ever use it. Yes, the visit was probably enlightening for them as well as for you. You sound like you handled it very well.

    Susan

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Hi, Yadirf,

    You asked,"Why is it ONLY the missionaries...that go to people's homes to spread the Mormon beliefs (referring to the 2-year full time missionaries)?"

    Answer is: It isn't. We all are responsible for missionary work. We all have the opportunity to do door to door work in our communities, if we desire to do so. My family does. However, there is a time and a season for all things. The full time missionaries, who put in approximately 10,000 hours of door to door work in their two years, knock on thousands of doors during that time. That is what they are called to do. They also teach classes, lead meetings, lead music, etc. Whatever they are asked to do.

    The rest of us (and them also, both before and after their missions), have other responsibilities, in addition to every member being a missionary. The Bible outlines other duties of members, such as to strengthen one another, to teach, to visit those in need, to meet together often (inferring a need to have someone lead those meetings, set up for those meetings, etc.). If you cannot find such lists of duties of members in your scriptures, I'll supply a verse or two.

    Most of us have multiple callings that, IF we were to keep time (which we don't) would easily double what most people would consider acceptable religious duty. We teach in classrooms (ages 18 months through adult, children, teens, men, women, Elders, High Priests) divided by many different classifications and each requiring a fully-prepared teacher. Every Ward has about 20 people called to teach, some teaching EVERY day, a calling I have thankfully never been asked to accept.

    We have people called to lead the young people in scouting, in activities, in various youth programs that keep our young people active and involved, and help keep them away from the harmful things of the world. We have people who do social service duties, helping those in financial, emtional, legal, or spiritual distress. We have those called to minister specifically to those in prison. Others called to help those physically in need. The list goes on and on. We consider it our responsibility to help in every possible way anyone in need, whether in our own congregation, or our neighborhood, or our community, etc.

    Most of us do in-home visiting and teaching of several families on a regular basis, and as part of that, are "on-call" for any needs those families may have, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, from help shoveling snow or providing rides to doctor visits, to taking care of their children, pets, farm animals, etc., when they need to be out of town (let me tell you, THAT is one huge responsibility). We truly believe in being our brother's keeper. And we don't just give that lip service or empty platitudes. Love is an action word, for us.

    Door to door work is important, but not more important than helping those who are already members, or others who are not members, and may never be, but are in need of our help. Door to door work is one facet of Christian service. You ask why we don't all do it, as JWs do. I wonder why your religion puts so little emphasis on blessing the lives of others through ongoing, genuine, meaningful acts of service and through other callings that provide opportunities for service.

    I have often heard JW family members bemoan their problems with finding assistance with some problem they are having, such as not being able to find someone to provide transportation when their car breaks down, not even having anyone they can phone to come pick them up from the garage, and I wonder why not? Why isn't there someone there for them? What good does it do to do X number of door-to-door hours and then be unavailable when someone in your own congregation has a need? That makes no sense to me, and it never will.

    Showing "love" to strangers is great, but is hollow at best if "love" isn't shown in more practical ways to members of your own congregation family, and your own neighbors and family members, whether members of your congregation or not.

    You also asked, "To what degree is it acurate (Mormon doctrine) ... that God makes his home out on some planet in the univers...has wives...produces children...spiritual persons...sent earthward." And also, "Is God a spirit person or a physical person."

    Yes, God has a home. Exactly where it would be if you went out and pointed at the night sky, none can say. Does it matter? Yes, he has a wife, whom he adores and cherishes in the same way he expects us to adore and cherish our own spouses, only far, far better since everything he does is far, far better than we can do. Notice I said "a wife". They have children, who of course are spirit beings, with spirit bodies that look much as ours do. The spirit part of us never ceases to be. He is spirit, encased in resurrected, glorified form. We are spirit, encased in mortal form. Mortal is temporary.

    Does that cover it?

    Susan

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Susan. Thanks for coming here.
    Mormonism interests me greatly.
    With regard to Jesus...
    I meant that as A recruit to the church I heard Little of eternal progression. The focus was upon "Jesus' during my recruitment.
    You say that long term Mormons complain of hearing little about Jesus
    and mostly about eternal progression.
    This appears to confirm my view that Jesus, in the Mormon church, is used during recruitment phase, basically because of the Christian background in the Western world.
    The recruits initially see what they expect to see.
    The deeper (totally unique)doctrines of Mormonism are unveiled to the recruit over time as he becomes more involved.
    Do you agree with this assessment?

    You say the business with blacks being accepted into full church status wasnt caused by the civil rights movement. Okay. Lets just call it convenient timing. From my own position, I have researched enough churches, however, to know that decisions in heaven are VERY MUCH influenced by political currents on earth.

    You say, susan, that preexistant beings come here to experience,"mortality" rather than "fallenness". Does this mean that your church does not believe in sin? Does your church believe that anything one deems fit to partake of is acceptable, because there is no such thing as sin?
    serious question.

    With regard to Joseph Smith.
    If Joseph Smith was married to say, Henry Jacobs wife, Zina "for eternity'
    and Henry Jacobs was married to her "for time". Would Joseph Smith be within his rights to have sexual relations with that woman whilst she was married to Henry Jacobs. In this life?

    One final question.
    Would it correct to say that anyone of my ancestors who is baptised while dead with myself as proxy,falls under my jurisdiction in the heavenly state?
    In other words, they become subject to me thruout eternity.
    is that correct?

    I mentioned some things as "slippery issues"in your church. I must clarrify they were only slippery for me. I could not establish the facts from your literature. I didnt mean the Church was being slippery and sneaky.

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Hi, refiners fire,

    Wow, how'd I get so misquoted so quickly?

    No time now, but I'll respond to your posting first thing in the morning. Meanwhile, reread what I said about Jesus. The anti-Mormons claim we don't teach of him. Not true. We DO teach of him. EVERYTHING we do is centered in him.

    Okay. Tomorrow will respond. See ya!!

    Susan

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Yardif; I have frequently admitted to having an attitude... let's see, I've admitted to being an arrogant asshole at times, I've admitted to having a potty mouth, I've admitted I am embarassed by my sheer and utter intolerance and implacable bigotry towards intolerance and bigotry, I'm very happy to admit I don't suffer fools gladly (did that until I was 27, vastly over-rated activity).

    So, you're wrong. Again. Hard habit to kick (said the monk to the nun).

    Seriously, you make me itch sometimes, but you seem to of late been reasonably reasonable, so I don't see the point getting into a slanging match. Maybe the horse will sing.

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • jerome
    jerome

    what do morons think of jehovah witnesses

    what do jehovah witnesses think of mormons

    i think the second question should be anwsered in
    in two catogries
    active witness and
    ex- witnesses

    this should be intersting.

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Hi, Jerome,

    I am going to presume your first statement was, "What do MORMONS think of JWs?" and respond to that since I have no idea what "morons" might think of JWs since I am not a moron and therefore can't speak for them! : )

    Mormons basically don't think about JWs one way or the other. It is our doctrine that all men may worship as they choose. This includes women also. We don't tear down other religions to make ours look better. If what we have is worth having, as I know it is, then it will stand on its own, without resorting to hateful tactics, half truths, or slanderous statements regarding the beliefs and works of others. We don't teach about, discuss about, or print articles about any religion other than our own. We simply let others be about their business and ask that they allow us the same privilege. Very few other religions allow us the same courtesy we allow them, but that doesn't mean we should wallow in the same hog trough with them as they go about their mudslinging.

    In my case, I have JW family and that complicates matters for me personally, but even there I find that if I stay out of the family fireworks, I'm better off. The Church (LDS) is right...it's best to simply let them be what they choose to be and wish them well as I go my own way.

    Susan

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Hi, refiners fire,

    You said, "As a(n investigator) to the church I heard little of eternal progression...the focus was upon 'Jesus'." Actually, it is impossible to separate the two. Jesus came because of the doctrine of eternal progression. The doctrine of eternal progression is only possible because Jesus came. They cannot be separated. Two halves of the same coin. As an investigator, things are taught in very basic form, while as a member, things are taught in more detail. Detail, as I have learned to my dismay when attempting to teach someone not ready for anything other than basic information, usually overwhelms and confuses rather than enlightens. Could that be why the Bible warns not to give meat to someone only ready for milk? Yes, undoubtedly. The same still holds true today.

    You said, "The deeper...doctrines of Mormonism are unveiled...over time as he becomes more involved." Wouldn't this be true of any religion, for exactly the above stated reasons? Every Christian denomination, if following Biblical precepts, will use care in teaching converts to their faith so as not to confuse or overwhelm them.

    I see evidence of that daily as people tell me they investigated the Church (LDS) but basically ran screaming from it when they learned we believe A, B, or C, when really they have it all mixed up in their own minds, and we DON'T believe in the A, B, or C that had their shorts in a twist.

    They will insist, "Yes, you do! The Gospel Doctrine teacher said so!" Or, "Someone in Sacrament Meeting said so and nobody said they were wrong so it must be true!" The truth of the matter, if video could be replayed of the scene in question, is that the hearer heard something he misunderstood because he himself didn't have the foundation to put it in the proper context. So he assumed something was being taught that never was intended at all. Sadly, it happens all too often, despite our best efforts to be clear in all things.

    Misunderstanding of doctrine causes all kinds of havoc. If people would just ASK about what they don't understand, or what they "heard" someone say, it could be cleared up very quickly for the benefit of all concerned, but few people do. Only the wise, actually. I admire those with courage enough to ask. They are the ones who are really trying to understand.

    You said, "Does ...(the LDS Church) not believe in sin? Does (it) believe anything one deems fit to partake of is acceptable...?"

    No, nothing could be further from the truth. Our doctrine is, "Wickedness was never happiness." Sin is very real. We must learn to choose walking in God's path, by faith, learning to choose good over evil, and to turn away from all that is unwholesome, loathsome, or evil. The best way to accomplish that is by turning towards what is good and brings joy. There is a reason Mormons are known for being happy, stable people. It's not an act. It's a way of life.

    You asked, "If JS was married "for eternity" to a woman married to someone else "for time"...would (he have) sexual relations with her?"

    As much as I detest this kind of lurid question as much for what it is not saying as for what it is, the answer is NO, he would not.

    You asked, "Would it be correct to say that any one of my ancestors who is baptised while dead with myself a proxy...become subject to me throughout eternity?"

    No. You would have their gratitude, but that is all. That should be more than enough since work for the dead is done for their behalf, and not for any hoped for reward of our own.

    "Slippery issues" if meant to be doctrines beyond the basics, and not as easily understood as the basic teachings are, occur to everyone from time to time. The best thing to do is to ask, research (from honest resources), and pray. The answers are there to be found and we are meant to enjoy the journey!

    Hope this helps!

    Susan

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat

    Susan,

    It is our doctrine that all men may worship as they choose. This includes women also. We don't tear down other religions to make ours look better. If what we have is worth having, as I know it is, then it will stand on its own, without resorting to hateful tactics, half truths, or slanderous statements regarding the beliefs and works of others. We don't teach about, discuss about, or print articles about any religion other than our own. We simply let others be about their business and ask that they allow us the same privilege. Very few other religions allow us the same courtesy we allow them, but that doesn't mean we should wallow in the same hog trough with them as they go about their mudslinging.
    This is so powerful to me! I am privileged to be a member of a church that believes this as well. The religion it is affiliated with is not necessarily known for that, but MY church congregation definitely believes this. Even though I disagree with some of the doctrines, THIS is a HUGE deal to me. "You will know them by their fruits" is something I work hard at remembering. Ultimately at the top of my belief system is this: no matter what religion you are a part of, no matter what belief system you have, no matter what doctrines you might or might not believe in, IF you are emulating the life and LOVE of Christ - you are a Christian. His example of LOVE should be the very foundation of any Christian's life. But sadly, as you and I witness in our families, it is not.

    It's nice to see other Christians like you who aren't bible thumping, self-righteous, judgemental Christo-babblers. (Thanks MommieD! )

    Love,
    Andi

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