Here i am....

by makersmark 81 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  clarity

  Hey I like your style Makermark, a warm welcome to you.

  I do agree that we could pull up our socks a bit around here, not only about some of the descriptive words used but also disregard for correct spelling etc. No one expects perfection, but sometimes the 'sloppy' spelling and grammer seems to be a 'thumming of the nose' against the Watchtower's education policies.

  >

  "...Those quotes from 1898 and even some 1930's 1950's quotes - we dont believe either....... dont use antiquated proof -"

  About your comment regarding the early beliefs, you must realize that Christ selected these men and the watchtower in 1919, because their teachings were Truth! If Christ looked and said ....this alone is the very best 'food' in all the world, no one else has such great truths, ... shouldn't they be posted up in a special place where everyone can see what Jesus loved so much. Why are those special teachings hidden and turfed out!

  Was Christ wrong? And why, if you show an interest in them are eyebrows raised? All this doctrine & promise had Christ's stamp of approval.

  Jehovah's people should have been able to trust these words. God cannot lie, his Son can't lie, these words should endure. What happened?

  I can see by your name, Makermark, that you like to get what you pay for. The tag line for this fine bourbon whisky is...."it tastes expensive...and is"

  Well to be blunt, the "drink" distributed by the discreet slave wasn't all it was cracked up to be!!

  You won't have to dig very deep to find that out.

  best wishes

  clarity
• 

  cantleave

  Makersmark, You need to do some reading. The three books that helped me the most were:

  Crisis of conscience by raymond Franz

  Combatting Cult Mind control by Stephen Hassan

  Captives of a Concept by Don Cameron
• 

  Alfred

  Makers mark...

  No disrespect intended but I think you may have missed the point... the fact that the Watchtower has changed their false teachings does NOT get them off the hook. You also have to consider WHY and under what circumstances these changes were made. For example, in 2007 they abandoned 1935 (as the year when the 144,000th person became annointed). But WHY exactly did they change this teaching? New light? Progressive refinement? NO... The real reason is that 6 members of the Governing Body who were born before 1935 had passed away between 2001 and 2007 (the last two died last year)... So there are currently no GB members who were born BEFORE 1935... I'll let you fill in the blanks... Bottom line: they really needed to do something quick before the letters overflowed their mailbox questioning their claim of authority (since they wren't born before 1935). Same thing happened with the Generation of 1914... Jack Barr was 97 in 2010... he was the only GB member born BEFORE 1914 when the the definition of "generation" was changed to "2 overlapping generations of annointed christians"... Interesting how they managed to squeeze that one in just before Barr passed away... excellent timing I might add.

  Also, have you watched the DVD "Faith In Action"? Chock full of distorted information, halftruths and flat out lies... For example, twice in this DVD the narrator explains that the Bible Students looked forward to 1914 as the year Christ would take his throne. F A L S E ... They were taught that Jesus took his throne in 1874 and it wasn't until the late 1920's that Rutherford changed this to 1914... That's why the older publications are relevant... they expose the lies that the WT feeds their brethren through whitewashed history lessons such as the one found on this DVD.

  I could go on and on... the point is that it really doesn't matter that the teachings have changed if these were changed for the wrong reasons (or if the WT attempts to cover up their past in the process or even lie about it)... Not very honest is it? i hope you now get the point...
• 

  dozy

  Hi - I was similar to you in terms of responsibilities. I was an elder , very active , all family are JWs over several generations. I just decided to be fair to my children that if I was going to bring them up as JWs that it was time to research JWs like I would research any subject. I approached this with great care & from the point of view that I really , really hoped that JWs had the truth & was prepared to give them the benefit of any doubt. Eventually the sheer weight of evidence forced me to change my view.

  Nothing really much to add - as other posters have said , read Franz's books (you can get them in PDF from from commentary press for a few dollars if you don't want the hard back versions.) He writes with the authority of a ex-GB member , meticulously researched , very much "biblically based" and without the bitterness that some ex-JWs have and that you allude to. It was an eye opener to me & I was a JW for 40 years. A few of my areas are listed below.

  (1) Increasing glorification of the GB. Virtually every Watchtower now holds up the "Faithful & Discreet slave" as an authority to be adhered to. Yet remember that the FADS ( essentially the GB / writing committee , as other anointed have no input as the WTBTS have made clear) writes the literature , even though they refer to themselves as a third party. There is a GB zone visit to Europe this summer - brothers are talking about it as if the Pope is visiting.

  (2) Lack of apologies The UN never was a big deal for me , but why didn't the WTBTS throw up their hands print some kind of explanatory paragraph in the Watchtower - essentially said "yes , we goofed - sorry guys" and just moved on. Franz writes about the only apology the WTBTS have ever made (the 1980 Yearbook "apology" over promoting 1975) and it gives an insight into why the WTBTS don't apologise. Why do they always have to portray an airbrushed impression of a perfect organisation while at the same time criticising heavily other groups , often for the same issues (eg child abuse) that sadly exist in the "truth"? When do they ever give any credit to other religious groups or charities in the literature?

  (3) Intellectual dishonesty I was surprised that the WTBTS had been quite cynical in mistranslating the NWT , especially the cack handed manner that they picked & chose the use of Jehovah's name in the Greek scriptures. Ditto the misquotes in books like the Creation book & Trinity brochrue where they at times completely and deliberately misquote scholars , scientists etc , some of whom were so annoyed that they wrote to the WTBTS protesting.

  (4) Similarity to Mormons etc It is difficult to objectively look at JWs as an long term insider , so for comparison examine the LDS. They have the same authority structure ( president & committee) who are "appointed by God" and must never be questioned. The same "new light" idea that gets them off the hook for previous errors. The same emphasis of organisational works as a proof of spirituality that JWs have. Read the stories of ex-mormons which are often very similar to JWs.

  Above all , take your time, enjoy the process and keep an open mind in all areas.
• 

  Heaven

  Welcome makersmark! Glad you decided to join. Obviously, you wouldn't be here if you didn't have doubts.

  -WT getting UN membership for access to library - doesnt bother me

  So does this mean you do not believe the WT$'s label of the U.N. as "Satan's Right Hand" then? I certainly do not.

  - constant attacks of old Russell, Rutherford teachings, etc.... using 100 year old watchtower quotes as proof - cmon

  Most JWs have no idea how their religion was founded and upon what. I was certainly lied to about this as a child. It is very important to look at the history of the organization in order to understand many things about it, including why those who left, did so. It all started there. And history does tend to repeat itself. If you truly believed your above statement, then why does any religion or person use the Bible which is thousands of years old?

  i cant help think why bad things happen to good people even in my organization.....

  Bad things happen because people focus on bad and destructive ideals, thoughts, events, goals, actions, etc. The JWs are no different than anyone else. Focusing on the mass slaughter of most of the human inhabitants of the Earth, personifying and focusing on evil (''watch out for the demonz!", "the world situation is so bad!") gets you frightened, paranoid, angry, and depressed people. If the JWs mobilized themselves to benefit mankind by doing the things Christ taught (helping the homeless, feeding the starving, healing the sick...) you'd have a far more positive, healthy, and happy group of people than those you see at the meetings. What You Focus On Expands, Gets Bigger, and Comes Into Your Life. This is a choice. I recommend choosing a positive path, not the one presented by the WT$.

  hit me with proof.........

  Do you believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God?
• 

  zoiks

  Welcome, MakersMark! You have a serious journey ahead of you.

  I get your lines of reasoning, and found myself reasoning like that not so long ago. I guess for me, it all boils down to the far-reaching effects on people's lives of various teachings, rules, and regulations of this group. I will just focus on one area: the Governing Body (notice how it is capitalized now when it wasn't years ago?)

  To me, "the GB are just imperfect men and make mistakes" is not an adequate response to the widowed mother of 3 whose husband died due to a lack of adequate medical care involving something like organ transplants or blood fractions. After his death, these things became "conscience matters"- so was his death a result of loyalty to God or out of loyalty to constantly-changing organizational dictates?

  To me, "the GB are just imperfect men and make mistakes" is not an adequate response to those who were beaten, raped, or killed in Malawi for not purchasing a political party card (in a single-party country) while at the very same time brothers in Mexico were allowed to bribe officials to get out of military service.

  To me, "the GB are just imperfect men and make mistakes" does not mesh well with the near-constant calls for absolute unquestioning loyalty to them in the Watchtower.

  To me, "the GB are just imperfect men and make mistakes" is no excuse for policies involving pedophiles that allowed these people continued access to children in the congregations while the brothers and sisters knew nothing of it; and people being discouraged from contacting authorities so as not to "bring reproach on Jehovah's name"... as if Jehovah needs us to defend him from bad PR.

  So, welcome, and I hope that you find satisfying answers to your questions.
• 

  bohm

  Hey and welcome.

  I would just say i hope you are not scared away. it is very rarely sincere people like yourself get here.

  If you want to research things at your own pace and not be constantly bombarded, i would recommend

  • Crisis of Conscience
  • jwfacts.com

  I was never a witness, i just met a girl who was. What convinced me that the witness didnt have the truth was the many, many times i would read something in the witness litterature my girlfriend gave me that would sound really interesting and convincing, but when i researched it i found out it was not true -- i am not talking about something like the trinity, i am talking about getting things factually wrong, like saying: "So and so said "..."" and it turns out when you read what he said, he said something completely different, and the quote was changed to make him look silly and/or wrong.

  I just dont think its allright to do when people are willing to live and die for what you teach, you owe them more. I just dont see why God would be particulary happy about an organization which behaved like that to the truth.

  btw, i think your right about the language, about the UN membership, and (to some extend) about the old stuff Russell did.

  Though i do think its significant russell got pretty much everything wrong chronologically when the WT today teach jesus choose them as his organization in 1919 because of what they taught.

  Regards!
• 

  punkofnice

  Welcome MM.

  I was born and raised in the JW's. Family 'in', pioneered, ms, elder and all the trimmings.........

  It was the 'overlapping' thing that finally finally got me. Don't get me wrong, I had doubts over the years and saw some very unloving things from elders and others who claimed to be Christian. I won't elaborate.

  I resigned as an elder and in a bid to become 'super spiritual' I decided to lay to rest all my doubts.

  It was the Watchtower's OWN writings that deporgrammed me. I had been on no forums and read nothing considered 'Apostate'.....after all I was trying to become the best I could be 'in the truth'!

  Finally I decided to read 'Combatting Cult Mind Control' by Steven Hassan, about his journey from the moonies. This was surely not considered 'apostate' but a good book to expose the Moonies, part of false religion.

  I saw the parallel between the Moonies and the JW's. Suddenly it all made absolute sense! I'd been conned all my life!

  Yes! I do use 'ironic' terms for the Org. and I am not a bit repentant for this. It helps me see the 'irony' in my journey from the org. After all, the org uses 'loaded language' designed to cause the 'US vs: THEM' illusion.

  Consider how insulting these terms actually are, they may as well be swear word insults = 'Apostate' 'Immature' 'Spiritually weak' 'worldly' among others.

  Like you I didn't have a problem with 'UN, 607BCE' and the like until I realised the real implications of adding it all up!!

  Keep in touch........and don't fret........take everything at your own pace.
• 

  Mickey mouse

  Hello and welcome

  - when a poster uses derogatory word-play on witness terms - what is the purpose? Kingdumb Hell? PLEASE - being offensive and childish is no way to influence a questioning mind. I understand the rage and past hurt but cmon - be mature....

  You're not on your own there http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/forum/suggestions/206176/1/On-Jerkhovas-Witlesses-Kingdumb-Hells-Filthful-Discreet-Slavebugger-and-Pio-sneering

  The JW mindset encourages groupthink and it can take a while to accept that whilst you may not agree with someone else's take on something, you can co-exist.

  The big thing that brought me here was 607. You see, if the WBTS are wrong about this, where is their authority? Being chosen in 1919 by Jesus (for which their is no scriptural basis, by the way) relies upon this 'chronology'.

  The UN thing isn't a big deal for me either.

  As far as disfellowshipping is concerned, if this is truly God's organization then maybe the ends justify the means. If not though, this is just a cult like many other groups who practice shunning as a form of control under the guise of 'keeping standards'.
• 

  nugget

  In brief because there have been so many fabulous resposes.

  UN - The society states that they joined to obtain a library card. There is a letter from the UN which clarifies that library cards are not dependent on membership so this explanation is a LIE. As members they also had to publish articles supporting the UN aims and the increase in articles and positive references to the UN during this period shows that they did take this seriously. This is disingenuous since the flock are being told on one hand about how bad the UN is and the need to keep seperate from politics and yet are getting positive references to their work in other articles.

  Old teachings this is significant since the history of the organisation as taught today shows that even though changes have been made there is the idea that at it's core it has remained consistent. The fact that old teachings bear no resemblance to teaching today is problematic as we are told that this organisation was chosen by God in 1919. What they believed then is important because it should provide the basis for defending this claim. The churches teachings during this period have undergone less change. They still change doctrine now and the worrying thing is that despite this history of change no one is ever allowed to question current doctrine. This is a cult characteristic not holy people trying to interpret the Bible.

  587 - 607 One of the most powerful things the JWs say is that the bible predicts 1914 and this is what gives a great deal of credibility to their interpretation of prophecy. If the premise is wrong then it means 1914 is not predicted in the way the witnesses say it is. Insisting people ignore the wealth of archaelogical evidence is madness. Not allowing people to question the hypothesis is controling. Read the texts cited since the evidence against the JW date is there in abundance and it is of importance.

  Disfellowshipping as a means to bring a person to their senses is cruel. Other religions are able to dry out alcoholics and turn people's lives around this is not unique to witnesses. Do not assume that DF'ing is the only solution and because it works on some occasions it is the best solution. I have several issues with it in terms of the way relatives are forced to shun even when the person has stopped sinning and it is clear they have no intention of returning. They are told in Israel the person would have been stoned to death so you should view your relative as dead because they do not follow your religious doctrine. So you have to question the real purpose. It is a technique used by cults to intimidate and control not to lovingly encourage someone to change their mind. So if it is a cult method why do god's people use it. Did Jesus shun Judas or anyone else? no he didn't so if Jesus didn't DF Judas for theft and collaborating with his enemies why do we use it so liberally? Why do we encourage minors to be baptised when the consequences of DF'ing them are so dreadful.

  Blood doctrine people died because they were upholding doctrine that was then changed. People therefore died needlessly. If paradise is real then they will see them again but if the organisation is wrong then these people gave up prescious time on Earth for nothing. They died for a lie.

  finally it tells us that God hates liars if an organisation lies habitually then can God love and use them? Does he stick with corrupt organisations or abandon them? Adam, Saul, Israel, Jews, etc if the Bible tells us nothing it tells us that God will try to fix it but then if the person refuses to be fixed he moves on.

  The anger on the board reflects the level of damage this cult does, whilst I may not always like it I completely get it. Some people have been treated appallingly by this cult and the wounds are deep and profound. It says in the bible that by their fruits you will recognise them, this religion produced these fruits of anger and frustration, if they are hard to swallow then may I suggest it is the tree that produced them that is the problem.

  Sorry this turned into a vent but like god I hate liars this organisation lied to me constantly and made me pass on their lies to others. I felt contaminated by it. If we believe the hard line attitude they teach this wouldn't be tolerated in a person so why do we allow a religion to get away with it? Why do we give it time and alliegance? They are unworthy.