makersmark, welcome to the board!
Here's my thoughts:
-WT getting UN membership for access to library - doesnt bother me - some passports and other governement documents have similar forms and requirements....
This isn't a huge biggie for me either. But I do find it a bit disturbing because of what I see as a double standard for the organization and for individual members. For example:
*** w79 1/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called “Christian” association would amount to apostasy.
I guess the real biggie for me here here is the myriad of rules that have been built up over the years instead of trusting the brothers to use their bible based conscience in various matters
-blood issue - some counterpoints to the JW 'rules' makes sense (original intent of scripture is unbled animals, white blood cells similar in mothers milk) etc -however a lot of 'apostate' reasonings and proof are inaccurate
Would need a bit more detail on what you believe is innacurate. I do feel that the intent of the mosaic laws on blood is that pouring out the blood was an atonement for a life that was taken. The Christian repitition of a few of the Jewish rules should be understood based on how the Jews interpreted the Mosaic law, and since a life is not taken in a blood transfusion, then their is no lost life to atone for (as even the most hard-core conservative Jews also see the matter). Life should be more important that it's symbol (Ironically, organ transplants, which are often taken from people who died are not seen as a problem because they don't involve the "symbol" of life, blood (though they are usually saturated with white blood cells))
- 587 vs 607 BCE leading to 1914: some points make sense - is there an actual hard and fast proof from a scholarly source of Babylons destuction date? - i've read the KISS method of explaining - to me it's as confusing as what JW's are accused of...
You will definitely want to read Carl O. Johnson's book (the gentile times reconsidered). It provides 18 seperate lines of scholarly proof for the 587 BCE date in excrutiating detail, as well as an explanation of the 70 years of Babylon that jives both with Bible and Secular chronology. It also addresses the Society's printed arguments against 587 BCE. PM if you want more details (to PM you can click on my avatar, then select "send message".).
- when a poster uses derogatory word-play on witness terms - what is the purpose? Kingdumb Hell? PLEASE - being offensive and childish is no way to influence a questioning mind. I understand the rage and past hurt but cmon - be mature....
agreed, immature and turns off curious JWs. I think it's some form of therapy for exJws...
- disfellowshipping - a hot issue - yes it can be a terrible consequence for some people - as an elder i have been involved in DF'ing situations - but honestly, believe it or not - this form of discipline has improved the persons life (turned them around from drug abuse or extreme unprotected sex) - however if DF-ing is misused by imperfect men and a wrong is indeed committed - i can understand the opposition. When i've read thru the many posts discussing DF'ing i have noticed that never is the JW explanation for this practise ever mentioned.......
I have talked to more than one Christian who has helped their fellow Christians deal with serious problems and or sin. They didn't need to disfellowship them. I'm not convinced the JWs practice of disfellowshipping is indeed scriptural, at least in it's current form. The scriptures talk of not associating with "so-called brothers" (which I interpret as hypocritical christians), the anti-christ (which JWs define as members of religious and political organizations today; in Christian times, it was those who preached that Jesus was not resurrected). A "rebuke given by the many" is sufficient. I do not beleive their is enough scriptural support for a forced shunning of those who are disfellowshipped. We all know that JWs now explain this as a loving provision to discipline the wrongdoer, but I feel that withdrawing familial love is not necessary to show one's dissaproval of a wrong course. Especially when one who has left no longer believes that the JWs have the true religion, or that God even exists, does disfellowshipping look more like a reason to keep ideas that oppose official doctrine from spreading in the JW community.
- constant attacks of old Russell, Rutherford teachings, etc.... using 100 year old watchtower quotes as proof - cmon - i know we celebrated Christmas, I know about the pyramids, i know JW have similar historical roots to other religions - the point is what we believe NOW...Those quotes from 1898 and even some 1930's 1950's quotes - we dont believe either....... dont use antiquated proof - If you want to sway me or other 'doubters' get some actual proof and ill listen.......
- finally - constant attacks on the governing body.... yes i know Knorr, Franz were hard core - I actually met and have close relatives that worked along side of them. Yes they said and did weird things, they got senile but not to the devilish picture that is being painted of them... No one is perfect..... When i was at bethel for a brief time - it was amazing, loving - not really the same story that experience after experience in these forums show...
When it comes down to it, these are the people who are claiming to be God's channel, that must be listened to, even when an individual feels that the matter should be a conscience matter or is an incorrect interpretation. Whenever the quote was pulled from was "NOW" for JWs listening at that time. The fact that some of these ideas have changed, been dropped, returned, etc. seriously make me doubt that the Holy Spirit is behind the "new light" that we received. I think it is more that we are receiving the interpretations of whomever is the decisions maker at the time. They may be honest and sincere, but it doesn't mean they have any more special connection to the holy spirit to understand the "deep things of God" than you or I.
Saying that - i do realize that people have got the shaft as a witness, i understand their pain and actually feel quite bad - I'm trying to be a loving shepard, imitating good qualites of the scriptures - i cant help think why bad things happen to good people even in my organization.....
"I'm trying to be a loving shepard, imitating good qualites of the scriptures", a very good quality in an Elder that may get you into trouble one day.
I think most things happen by chance and we label them according to our beliefs. When something goes good we thank God. When something goes bad, we attribute it to time and unforseen occurence or a lack of God's approval or a test from Satan. Good things and bad things happen to good and bad people.
Finally - the 1995 and 2010 changes about generations really really bothers me - scriptures dont say "and this overlapping generation will by no means pass away". Im scared crapless about this - all concept of armagedon coming is changed and not many of my fellow bros and sisters even realized this? am i wrong?
Most are conditioned to accept whatever changes come as new light. I have had to clarify the meaning of the overlapping generation to a few elders in my hall who didn't understand all the details. The latest change prompted me to research the generation teaching and I was very suprised to learn that Russell thought it was originally a literal generation (1874-1914), Rutherford taught it was the "chosen ones" (anointed), then it became the generation of 1914 (with continuous tweaks to extend the time frame), then the wicked people, then the anointed again, then the overlapping thing. This was the first thing (along with the flip-flop of the meaning of the superior authorities (Wordly governments => Jehovah/Jesus => Wordlly governments) that led me to the conclusion that our beliefs were really the "best guesses" of the leadership at the time in order to meet the needs of the organization at the time. I belive the main reasons behind the overlapping teaching was to restore a sense of urgency lost in the 1995 change and to make JWs more mentally comfortable with the original "1914" generation dying off (as was very visibly represented by with the passing of Brother Barr and Brother Jaracz this year).
There you have it folks - my mind is critically open to you - hit me with proof.........
Stick around for a while. Rome wasn't dismantled in a day
